New Everton Stadium Discussion

[catcherintherye]

"In 30 years this has never happened to me"....*if I just ignore last year that is

That FC Cincinnati stadium orange glow is a go -- but with a new architect

FC Cincinnati hired a new architect to complete its West End Stadium. The change will \

www.cincinnati.com

Reading between the lines maybe the situation changed and it wasn't communicated to him. I don't know how he treats other projects, but he certainly seemed to get involved very heavily with ours and took to the city and it's people.

It's interesting though, that on at least one other occasion the same thing has happened to his firm. Maybe they are known for being great conceptual but not technical architects?

The end point of this though, given he has said the project will go ahead, and seems to be put out it will go ahead without him, it looks more likely it goes ahead than probably 2 weeks ago. Essentially someone very close to the project has in a round about way confirmed he expects it to happen.

 

[catcherintherye]

If you look at his twitter header, for example.

Designer of Staples Center

I know its only Wiki, but his name doesn't appear anywhere?

Crypto.com Arena - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Architect	NBBJ

And its the same for all the stadiums he mentions, his name doesn't appear anywhere regarding the stadiums.


Which suggests to me that hes binned off from every stadium hes ever "designed".

It suggests to me that he is well known as the conceptual architect but doesn't have anywhere near the same reputation as the technical architect.

I know our pessimism leads us to believe that this is a cost cutting exercise from the club (it could be) but to me an objective reading if the information wouldn't lead to that conclusion from what I can see. It looks as if we have moved from an architect who had very little experience of the "delivery" aspect of the angle to one that seems to be far better regarded and has more experience. Whether it is the club, or the contractor that have pushed for the change we don't know, but Iwould imagine the new architects will have a better credibility rating than Meis with this aspect of the build.

If I were guessing I'd imagine the club probably gave guarantees to Dan he'd be involved the whole way through. For Meis that is a big plus, as it means a first experience in an area he had very little in and probably would have worked wonders for himself and his company. I suspect when the contractor has led this change, as in truth the club aren't decisive enough to make such calls (though if they are then good). The clubs priority is now very much to the contractor, who have ran a tender process and he's opted not to bid for.

It's sad for Dan, and I think lots of people took to him. I couldn't really stick him, but I appreciate the hard work he did and he produced a fantastic vision. I hope when the stadium is built he is there and a thank you is given to him, alongside those who built the next phase.

 

[catcherintherye]

Not necessarily. On big construction projects it's common to have a concept architect and a technical architect. I'm not familiar with big commercial construction projects, as I have only worked in the residential sector, but it seems to be even more common in the commercial sector.

As someone else rightly pointed out it's probably best that we have a technical architect who has substantial experience and therefore an understanding of the building regulations in this country.

By all accounts Meis architects were invited to tender for the technical aspect of the project, but for whatever reason they didn't win the bid. I wouldn't be surprised if the main contractor had some influence in that, and Laing O'Rourke are one of the very best in the world at what they do.

I can't see the stadium changing too much unless some of the elements of the design were deemed to be too expensive or not financially viable. Generally speaking an architect will design the building and then a structural engineer will assess the design and design the foundations and structural elements to essentially support the design. Sometimes an architect will design something and then it turns out it will cost a disproportionate amount of money to support it structurally.

I think this is a really informed perspective.

I don't think Meis has been sacked, sackings isn't really a worthwhile paradigm. You tender for work. I imagine they had probably always kept the different stages separate.

It seems very ruthless from the club, but in honesty I can't say I am disappointed at that. For too long the club has lacked ruthlessness at all levels, and us starting to think about getting the best architect for the next phase, rather than a bloke who the fans like (who may well be a credible architect too) is the right decision.

 

[matty1878]

I’m confused with all this. So have we binned him off now for someone else?

 

[TheAlmightyFloater]

Yes I mean I don't know anything about the new architects who we are all presuming are money saving people. It may be they are just better qualified and bigger than Meis's operation, or have more experience of this phase.

However yes, if costs were to start to rise (which in truth given we are heading for a prolonged recession is very unlikely) but if they were, some of the "mod cons" may be downgraded.

Here's the link to their projects page, on which Bramley Moore is also listed. Few big names there, including what is now the Etihad stadium.

Less than thrilled about their involvement in the stadiums for the Qatar 2020 WC given their treatment of construction workers - but the business pedigree is there.

https://www.pattern-architects.com/projects/

 

[matty1878]

It suggests to me that he is well known as the conceptual architect but doesn't have anywhere near the same reputation as the technical architect.

I know our pessimism leads us to believe that this is a cost cutting exercise from the club (it could be) but to me an objective reading if the information wouldn't lead to that conclusion from what I can see. It looks as if we have moved from an architect who had very little experience of the "delivery" aspect of the angle to one that seems to be far better regarded and has more experience. Whether it is the club, or the contractor that have pushed for the change we don't know, but Iwould imagine the new architects will have a better credibility rating than Meis with this aspect of the build.

If I were guessing I'd imagine the club probably gave guarantees to Dan he'd be involved the whole way through. For Meis that is a big plus, as it means a first experience in an area he had very little in and probably would have worked wonders for himself and his company. I suspect when the contractor has led this change, as in truth the club aren't decisive enough to make such calls (though if they are then good). The clubs priority is now very much to the contractor, who have ran a tender process and he's opted not to bid for.

It's sad for Dan, and I think lots of people took to him. I couldn't really stick him, but I appreciate the hard work he did and he produced a fantastic vision. I hope when the stadium is built he is there and a thank you is given to him, alongside those who built the next phase.

so we’re going of his design? Well why have we moved else we’re?

 

[BNJ1878]

I’m confused with all this. So have we binned him off now for someone else?

Depends what you mean by binned off.

A different architectural firm has taken over the next phase, one he was already working with.

He's in a sulk about it.

 

[brieverton]

If Meis had kept quiet about it and then wished the club and the project well in the future when asked, he would have come out of this smelling of roses and with our respect and gratitude.

It's very sad and unfortunate that the relationship has to end like this in such a sulky manner.

Meis is the ultimate loser whilst the project goes on - business is tough and after a long career he should realise that by now.

All he has left is a sour aftertaste, and no doubt, personal regret.

 

[matty1878]

Depends what you mean by binned off.

A different architectural firm has taken over the next phase, one he was already working with.

He's in a sulk about it.

so what’s the next phase? I’m lost here mate sorry if I sound thick if he’s the designer and has designed it, isn’t just to now-be built?

 

[Eggs]

.....just reading about the history of Goodison Park:

- In 1895 a new Bullens Rd stand was built and a roof placed on the original Goodison Road stand but only after 5 Directors including Chairman, George Mahon, resigned over ‘acute administrative difficulties’.

- In 1906 Liverpool Architect Henry Hartley designed the new Goodison Avenue Stand but was unhappy at aspects of the development.

Things don’t really change, what goes around comes around.

 

[trueblue84]

so what’s the next phase? I’m lost here mate sorry if I sound thick if he’s the designer and has designed it, isn’t just to now-be built?

The actual delivery. I'm not sure why he's crying, tbh, unless he was given some assurance that he'd have the contract. But, if that was the case, they should have had a contract stating such. As others have said, I think he was hoping for this to give his company experience in an area where they don't really have any.

 

[matty1878]

The actual delivery. I'm not sure why he's crying, tbh, unless he was given some assurance that he'd have the contract. But, if that was the case, they should have had a contract stating such. As others have said, I think he was hoping for this to give his company experience in an area where they don't really have any.

So he’s just a designer and that’s it? Well if he is he’s done his part?

 

[number4.]

so what’s the next phase? I’m lost here mate sorry if I sound thick if he’s the designer and has designed it, isn’t just to now-be built?

Concept Architect has been ditched now that his work is completed, in exchange with for a technical Architect who will be knee deep in the detail; cost implications and practical implications of certain area's of the design.

Good news - it was part of the plan and suggests it is moving along nicely
Bad news - we might see a slightly diluted version of BMD with costs Vs design Vs engineering implications becoming a reality

 

[trueblue84]

So he’s just a designer and that’s it? Well if he is he’s done his part?

Pretty much. He could be kept on as a consultant, to ensure the design doesn't stray too far from the original vision, but it looks like that isn't happening.

 

[matty1878]

Concept Architect has been ditched now that his work is completed, in exchange with for a technical Architect who will be knee deep in the detail; cost implications and practical implications of certain area's of the design.

Good news - it was part of the plan and suggests it is moving along nicely
Bad news - we might see a slightly diluted version of BMD with costs Vs design Vs engineering implications becoming a reality

Pretty much. He could be kept on as a consultant, to ensure the design doesn't stray too far from the original vision, but it looks like that isn't happening.

Thanx lads. So I’m guessing we have someone lined up better for the nxt phase you would think