Ignorance?

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fed up of plan b talk

are you saying that X amount of pounds spent on kirkby should be also spent on Plan B

personally, my understanding of the chairmans words were ' if kirkby fails, were back to the start again'

1) we were offered kirkby (Fact)
2) the board looked at deal offered (Fact)
3) the board liked the deal offered (Fact)
4) the board decided to invest money to see if kirkby could become reality (fact)
5) plans b, c ,d whatever would have to pass along these points (fact)

if you or anyone can provide the answers to those below i would gladly listen
1) Location
2) business plan
3) financial plan

have we got £1-20m to waste on plan B, when it may never be required?

can understand some of your worrys, but not your apparant unwillingness to not offer any solutions. thinking you just might like to disagree at times for the hell of it.

keep on disagreeing by all means, but offer alternatives

Hang on a bit. I can't offer a solution, I am not charged with finding a stadium for our club. But I am allowed to be concerned that we may end up high and dry.

I think this thread is becoming a little personal and that's not really fair. I am not leading with my heart, I am leading with my head. I am concerned that Goodison is going to fall down and we don't have a stadium to go to.

But why is this site so different than the opinion of others? Why are ToffeeWeb totally against the move? Why is Howard Kendall, Duncan Ferguson and Big Nev against the move?

And I don't see why we shouldn't be discussing this situation, its not like its old news, its still an event that has to happen, so its still open to discussion. If people don't like the fact we are talking about it, then don't contribute, that's your right.

But the AGM was just on, its still topical, and its still going to be topical long after the stadium has been built/redeveloped.
 

I want to sasy that Ghost, you have conducted yourself very well in this thread, you havent used potty language or called anyone a **** (well almost) You have a difference of opinion to the majority of people on here then so be it.

i dont agree with you but its no biggy.
 
I want to sasy that Ghost, you have conducted yourself very well in this thread, you havent used potty language or called anyone a **** (well almost) You have a difference of opinion to the majority of people on here then so be it.

i dont agree with you but its no biggy.

Well thanks, but I'm not after people agreeing with me. I'm just surprised that so little are concerned that we may end up in a bad situation. So many don't see the split board opinions as a concern. I'm also surprised that some see it as a discussion that has run its course.

I bet if we were losing games the mood would not be so sombre.
 
I want to sasy that Ghost, you have conducted yourself very well in this thread, you havent used potty language or called anyone a **** (well almost) You have a difference of opinion to the majority of people on here then so be it.

i dont agree with you but its no biggy.

Whoa, thread ain't over yet....:lol: :lol:
 

Hang on a bit. I can't offer a solution, I am not charged with finding a stadium for our club. But I am allowed to be concerned that we may end up high and dry.

I think this thread is becoming a little personal and that's not really fair. I am not leading with my heart, I am leading with my head. I am concerned that Goodison is going to fall down and we don't have a stadium to go to.

But why is this site so different than the opinion of others? Why are ToffeeWeb totally against the move? Why is Howard Kendall, Duncan Ferguson and Big Nev against the move?

And I don't see why we shouldn't be discussing this situation, its not like its old news, its still an event that has to happen, so its still open to discussion. If people don't like the fact we are talking about it, then don't contribute, that's your right.

But the AGM was just on, its still topical, and its still going to be topical long after the stadium has been built/redeveloped.


This appears to be a matter of you saying Ghost, I have no alternative, possible there is no alternative but I don't agree any way. Let it happen because at sometime in our history we have to move, the [Poor language removed] are closing our old ground, Burden Park, Maine Road, Baseball Ground, Roker Park, Highbury and many more have all gone.

To create like this without any alternative is just an exercise in futility
 
Well thanks, but I'm not after people agreeing with me. I'm just surprised that so little are concerned that we may end up in a bad situation. So many don't see the split board opinions as a concern. I'm also surprised that some see it as a discussion that has run its course.

I bet if we were losing games the mood would not be so sombre.

We will end up in far worse situation if we sat on our ass and do nothing.
 
perhaps. (that said i could be happier with certain things on the playing side, but thats elsewhere)

just to point out...

I'm just surprised that so little are concerned that we may end up in a bad situation.

we are in a bad situation, hence the need to move, if it all goes tits up then we are still stuck in the very same problem that requires us to move.

i am unaware of the split opinions on the board (efc boardroom)

with regards 'run its course' the vote is in, the wheels are in motion, the club can do nothing to alter the decisions in local and national government - we are in limbo until the green light is given and earth can be broken.
 
This appears to be a matter of you saying Ghost, I have no alternative, possible there is no alternative but I don't agree any way. Let it happen because at sometime in our history we have to move, the [Poor language removed] are closing our old ground, Burden Park, Maine Road, Baseball Ground, Roker Park, Highbury and many more have all gone.

To create like this without any alternative is just an exercise in futility

How is it an exercise in futility? I am no expert, but I am an interested observer who has an opinion. I don't think the stadium in Kirkby is a bad idea, I don't think its a [Poor language removed] stadium, I think its a nice stadium. I'm just concerned at the way the club have conducted themselves.

How can one board member say we have to move, we won't get a safety certificate. And then another more important member of the board says if we don't get the vote and people want us to stay, we will stay.

Is it also possible that we have to move, not because of the safety issues, but because of the fact we are financially in the [Poor language removed] again and Tesco's are bailing us out?

But I would like to see a study into Redeveloping Goodison, and I doubt it would cost millions to find it out.
 

''goodison for ever-ton'' wasnt it?


as for the sound bites, time line is important to keep perspective. BK said he would walk if the move was voted against. so, to be honest, its been a bit of a soap story that as yet hasnt finished.
 
''goodison for ever-ton'' wasnt it?


as for the sound bites, time line is important to keep perspective. BK said he would walk if the move was voted against. so, to be honest, its been a bit of a soap story that as yet hasnt finished.

When did he say he would walk if he never got the vote?
 
Wyness: Staying at Goodison isn't a long term option, if Kirkby fails we will have to move somewhere else eventually.

Kenwright: If Kirkby fails we will have to return to Goodison as we have no alternative plans (yet).

I don't see the difference. Both are saying we need to move long term, both are saying that we don't have an alternative plan in place so we would continue playing at Goodison until such time as we do have such a plan.

As I've said, there have been many studies into redeveloping Goodison.

http://www.google.com/search?source...:2006-38,GGLG:en&q=redeveloping+goodison+park

It's perhaps worth remembering that back in 2000 when the Kings Dock proposal was floated 84% of Evertonians voted to move. Whilst some will no doubt say that the feeling is waning it's also clear that the desire to move to more suitable environs isn't a flash in the pan.

At the time:

The decision to consider a new stadium follows the publication of a feasibility study into possible redevelopment of Goodison Park. Business advisers Deloitte Touche and architects Ward and McHugh Associates looked at the best ways of revamping the existing ground. Everton would prefer to transform the existing stadium into a 55,000-capacity venue. Experts drew up two possible solutions but following talks with city council chiefs and fans groups, these have been ruled out. Each scheme would have cost more than £50m and a lengthy planning permission procedure would have to have been followed to force either scheme through. Gwladys Street School and scores of homes would have needed to be demolished to make way for the new-look Goodison. New houses and a replacement school would have had to be built at the Eileen Craven site on Walton Lane. The council also would have had to rewrite its Local Plan, its future planning blueprint, to accommodate the scheme, which would have included a shopping complex and a hotel.

These obstacles have led to Everton's directors admitting publicly for the first time that they are now seeking to construct a new stadium elsewhere in the city.

In a statement issued last night, the club said: "It is apparent that whilst remaining at Goodison is an option, doing so on the existing footprint would effectively restrict the club's ability to increase capacity beyond 45,000. In light of this information, the board of directors has been given no alternative other than to continue pursuing the identification of alternative sites within the city boundary which might prove more commercially attractive and at the same time be acceptable to our supporters. The board reiterates that no decision has yet been made and, as promised, the views of our supporters will be canvassed before any such decision is taken."

Our good friends at ToffeeWeb have a summary of the feasibility study.

http://www.toffeeweb.com/club/goodison/gfe/Default.htm
 
You see this is what I find interesting.

TS = Mr Trevor Skempton, architect.
TS then moved onto the redevelopment of Goodison Park.

TS stated that this would need to be done piecemeal, but could be done stand-by-stand within a close-season, season, next close-season period, so revenue for the Club would only drop during one playing season.

TS stated that all four stands would be demolished, beginning with the Park End, plus moving that stand back around 40 yards into the existing car park.

The Bullens Road Stand would be next, followed by the Gwladys Street Stand, then finally the Main Stand.

TS stated by the end of this project, the stadium would hold 60 000 premium quality seats, with double-decker stands plus a triple-decker Main Stand.

TS also maintained that the design would be such that should the team be more successful, the ground capacity could be raised to 80 000 by adding a third deck to the other stands.

This sparked some heated debate and comments aimed at the Board and CP, for example from Mr Mark Denny, who accused WK of being the man who will best be remembered as “The man who tore the heart and soul out of Everton Football Club, by moving outside of the city to Kirkby”

At this point, WK stated he would like to talk to TS outside of the meeting.

SH asked how much the Kirkby stadium was going to cost in total, and how much the Club would have to pay towards that.

RE indicated that he would like to answer this question, which WK accepted.

RE firstly briefly introduced himself as a 56 year old man that largely resides in the United States of America, was a Tottenham supporter, but now is fully supportive of the Everton cause.

RE confirmed that he asked to join the Board, as he felt that with his many years of business marketing and profitability expertise, he could help maximise this Club’s “massive potential”.

RE informed the meeting that the Kirkby stadium cost was around £50 million when first floated.

After the feasibility study and the Board’s wish that supporters only received the highest quality seating, facilities, environment etc., the cost rose to about £75 million.

Due to construction costs, the figure then became approximately £100 million.

Now, because construction costs have risen again, the total stadium cost at Kirkby is in the region of almost £150 million.

At this point, some angry SH asked how the Club intended to meet these extra costs.

RE attempted to placate these SH by stating that the Board had formulated a long-term plan to pay all the stadium costs.

WK and KW informed the SH that these costs had mostly been factored into the original business plan, as they knew prices would rise before the stadium was completed.

KW was adamant that this original Kirkby stadium plan was still very much on track and financially deliverable.

SH asked the Board why there appeared to be no ‘Plan B’ or ‘Plan C’ if the Kirkby stadium plan could not proceed.

KW stated to SH that same as he has many times in the media, to financially maintain and progress the Club at the forefront of the domestic and European football scene, there was no other option than to move to Kirkby.

Another passionate and lively debate followed, with a lot of SH pointing out that TS had put forward what appeared to be sensible and affordable plans for both the ‘loop’ and Goodison Park.

WK then confirmed to the meeting that he was happy for him and the rest of the Board, to consider the Scotland Road ‘loop’ site as a ‘Plan B’ and the redevelopment of Goodison Park as a ‘Plan C’.

WK then declared this part of the Q&A closed.


So the stadium is going to cost £150m - £50m more than what we were initially told, and we are paying for the lot, or have I misred that. I thought that the cost for us was minimal, not so it appears.
 
That's still cheap in this day and age. To provide some context for the redeveloping Goodison argument, as shareholder at Man Utd I had access to the information involved with the expansion of Old Trafford.

Now they were only expanding various stands, they weren't building from scratch, yet the cost of development was well in excess of £5,000 per seat and none of the work was completed in an off-season.

I'm not a building expert but it does appear to be a trend for the industry at the moment for costs to rise significantly. I suspect this is in part due to a lack of labour (cue Polish immigrants to the rescue), and also the scarcity of raw materials. Most basic commodities have risen enormously in price in the past decade as China et al have taken to buying up large chunks of Africa to secure their share.

So yes, the price hike isn't nice but it's not really something the club can control.
 

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