Messi "best player of all time"

[Pabbers]

I watched the Premier Sports highlights of that Brazil v Argentian match last night.

'kin ell. He's utterly shot. Finished.

Didn't touch the ball for the first 8 minutes of the game and was restricted to two free kicks.

IF you watch much of him, you realise that for the first 5-10 mins he usually does very little, with a very good reason.

 

[Disgruntledgoat]

Messi is a poor man's Tom Finney.

There, I said it.

 

[artetas_biggest_fan]

I think Maradona is the best ever personally but you are right with the Napoli thing. Maradona was a massive part of the team obviously but it's not like they were a bunch of part timers. They also had the likes of Carnavale, Di Napoli, Ciro Ferrara, Luca Fusi, Bagni and even a very young Zola for a bit. They were a good side.

Napoli were definitely a top top side, aided by having an extremely wealthy benefactor who could afford to pay out world record transfer fees. Careca was a world class forward. From his own standing in the game he was unlucky in that Brazil were mugged by Argentina in the last 16 of Italia 90 (a game Brazil dominated, peppered the Argie goal with Alemao and Dunga hitting the post, with the Argies scoring a breakaway goal 10 minutes from time), for had they gone on to win that (them and W.Germany were the two best teams) he would be a much bigger name than he is, which is largely forgotten. That Napoli side is now largely just seen as the team of Maradona which is a joke.

Napoli winning Serie A isn’t the miracle it’s made out to be. Talent wise they were in the top two in Italy with A.C. Milan. Maradona hit the jackpot by going to a team that had just come into money, a team from the south of Italy that had won nothing of note (so whatever was won with him would stand out more), and the money dried up when he left which has saw them win nothing of note since (again, making his era stand out even more). He’s been elevated by circumstance.

Remove the name Napoli, label it Milan, and have all the same resources that Napoli had, that success wouldn’t be given the same weight. The name Napoli fools people into thinking what he achieved there was miraculous. If you can afford to spend over £5 million on a player (the British transfer record 10 years later was £3.75 million for Roy Keane), and you have a team littered with Italian internationals and the other two foreigners top Brazilians, if you don’t win trophies there is something wrong. Maradona was great for Napoli, no question, the stand out player on the team, but just like the Argie team in ‘86 (with Valdano and Burrachaga converting their chances in the final, unlike Higuain in 2014), he didn’t do it alone.

This is the worst Argie team in history. Two of the midfielders taken off the other night (names I’d never heard of). A shambolic defence. As great a leader Maradona was (his leadership is the only quality I’d rank him higher at having than Messi) he isn’t getting that rubbish any further.

 

[Walken]

Napoli were definitely a top top side, aided by having an extremely wealthy benefactor who could afford to pay out world record transfer fees. Careca was a world class forward. From his own standing in the game he was unlucky in that Brazil were mugged by Argentina in the last 16 of Italia 90 (a game Brazil dominated, peppered the Argie goal with Alemao and Dunga hitting the post, with the Argies scoring a breakaway goal 10 minutes from time), for had they gone on to win that (them and W.Germany were the two best teams) he would be a much bigger name than he is, which is largely forgotten. That Napoli side is now largely just seen as the team of Maradona which is a joke.

Napoli winning Serie A isn’t the miracle it’s made out to be. Talent wise they were in the top two in Italy with A.C. Milan. Maradona hit the jackpot by going to a team that had just come into money, a team from the south of Italy that had won nothing of note (so whatever was won with him would stand out more), and the money dried up when he left which has saw them win nothing of note since (again, making his era stand out even more). He’s been elevated by circumstance.

Remove the name Napoli, label it Milan, and have all the same resources that Napoli had, that success wouldn’t be given the same weight. The name Napoli fools people into thinking what he achieved there was miraculous. If you can afford to spend over £5 million on a player (the British transfer record 10 years later was £3.75 million for Roy Keane), and you have a team littered with Italian internationals and the other two foreigners top Brazilians, if you don’t win trophies there is something wrong. Maradona was great for Napoli, no question, the stand out player on the team, but just like the Argie team in ‘86 (with Valdano and Burrachaga converting their chances in the final, unlike Higuain in 2014), he didn’t do it alone.

This is the worst Argie team in history. Two of the midfielders taken off the other night (names I’d never heard of). A shambolic defence. As great a leader Maradona was (his leadership is the only quality I’d rank him higher at having than Messi) he isn’t getting that rubbish any further.

How many times did Napoli win the league without Maradona?

How many times have Barca won the league without Messi?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Maradona was absolutely a leader. He took teams by the scruff of their necks and raised their game. Pele was the same.

Can the best players really be judged on their behavior? That's more to do with being a role model than a great player. If you can get both in one then great...

He was an abysmal coach, so where were his leadership qualities then? I'm also not sure you can brush aside being thrown out of a World Cup for doping as nothing, especially as he was captain of the team at the time.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I think Maradona is the best ever personally but you are right with the Napoli thing. Maradona was a massive part of the team obviously but it's not like they were a bunch of part timers. They also had the likes of Carnavale, Di Napoli, Ciro Ferrara, Luca Fusi, Bagni and even a very young Zola for a bit. They were a good side.

And in the documentary about the guy, he clearly says that he told the president of the club that he'd only sign if the club bought the players Maradona wanted in the side. So it's clear the club had money, both to break the world transfer record to sign Maradona himself, but also to buy the support players he demanded.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

How many times did Napoli win the league without Maradona?

How many times have Barca won the league without Messi?

Leicester had never won the league without Jamie Vardy so he must be the best everrrr.

 

[Walken]

Leicester had never won the league without Jamie Vardy so he must be the best everrrr.

Yeah another great equivalence there, right up there with you wanting to use Brian Lara as a yardstick for Joe Root

 

[Walken]

He was an abysmal coach, so where were his leadership qualities then? I'm also not sure you can brush aside being thrown out of a World Cup for doping as nothing, especially as he was captain of the team at the time.

You can't brush aside the world cup he won either

 

[Bruce Wayne]

You can't brush aside the world cup he won either

I can and I will

 

[davek]

IF you watch much of him, you realise that for the first 5-10 mins he usually does very little, with a very good reason.

He's finished. Has been for a long time as a top class player.

 

[Papa Shango]

He was an abysmal coach, so where were his leadership qualities then? I'm also not sure you can brush aside being thrown out of a World Cup for doping as nothing, especially as he was captain of the team at the time.

What has coaching got to do with leadership?

Was Dave Watson a leader? Kevin Ratcliffe? Roy Keane? All rubbish managers. I don't get this reference to be honest. It actually seems to be harder to be a great coach or manager when you were a top player, probably because players cant get their head around the fact that their players can not work the same magic that he could (Alan Ball was alleged to have had issues with that.)

I'm not brushing anything aside, I just don't think it affects his leadership abilities. If anything he was trying too hard to make an impact for his team.

I think all the best players have a bit of the devil in them though.

 

[artetas_biggest_fan]

How many times did Napoli win the league without Maradona?

How many times have Barca won the league without Messi?

Did you not just read what I said? Maradona was at Napoli at the one time in their history when they were loaded. Before and after his era they haven’t had the resources to compete (bar the last two/three years). He’s been elevated by circumstance, his achievements stand out more due to the factors mentioned. He does the same thing in an AC Milan jersey (with his same Napoli teammates) there is nowhere near the acclaim.

Here’s a question, how many times have Napoli broke the world transfer record before Maradona? Since Maradona?

Answer is none.

Regards Barca, how many times did Maradona win the league there? Cup Winners Cup vs Man Utd? They won the league the year after he left though.

 

[artetas_biggest_fan]

He's finished. Has been for a long time as a top class player.

Bobbins. Another stellar year for Barca in La Liga, top goal scorer in the Champions League.

if the golden boot winner isn’t top class then no-one is.

 

[davek]

Bobbins. Another stellar year for Barca in La Liga, top goal scorer in the Champions League.

if the golden boot winner isn’t top class then no-one is.

La Liga title and nothing else. That's perfunctory for a top class player.

Messi: always has been ineffectual on the international stage; now he's in danger of hanging round like a bad smell for Barcelona. Hazard's arrival at Madrid will show everyone that Barcelona need their upgrade.