I'm a Spurs and Hamburg fan so know all about Martin Jol. I'm also very aware of his career pre Spurs and am aware of the cirucmstances in which he has had to work. I genuinlay believe that he's as good as pretty much any manager around. However, like someone such a Roy Hodgson he's come up in management the hard way and never gets to take charge of clubs in the best cricumstances. It ammoys me fans judge managers on what they've won, rather taking the time to really look closesly at the circumstances in which they are managing. There are quite a few very highly rated managers out there who seem to be judged purely on what they have won and their failures are ignored. But the fact they have these failures on their records suggests that event he best managers will struggle in tough circumstances. This begs the question is there a number of second tier mangers out there, that if given the opportunity at the top level, in favourable circumstances, go on to earn themselves a reputation on par with the likes of Cappello and Wenger etc? I believe than answer is yes and am certain that Jol is one of those managers. But, I'm also sure the same is true of David Moyes. Also Jol is a realist. He knows the different approach he has to football compared to Moyes isn't going to make a huge difference. He's had his finger burned before. He lost his job at Tottenham and had his reputation dented because the money wasn't made available to buy the players he requested and made the mistake of thinking he'd be given time to develop the players he already had. This experience has clearly effected him and he walked out on HSV when he thought expectations were unrealistc (and proved to be rigth, despite the chairman chnaging his mind and allowing his replacement to spend big money). He tired to do the same this summer with Ajax and essentially blackmailed them into spending some money. There is no way he's going to go to another club where he's expected to perform miracles with limited spending. He did it at Tottenham and in the end got treated like [Poor language removed] and is often compared to Redknapp who has double the wage budget he had (btw wages are the key, not net transfer spend). Why would Martin Jol go to a club and take over from a very good manager who is suffering in the same way he has for most of his career? It's criminal that someone like Roberto Mancinni wins a coulle of Italian cups and then is given the Inter and Man City jobs, when the likes of Jol and Moyes have worked there way up and then get disgregarded for higher profile mangers who have "won" things.
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neonleon
Player Valuation: £35m
some interesting points here. Didn't they spend 40/50 million though the off season before he got sacked. Bale, Bent etc.
The problem is as I see it that the Everton fan base has grown accustomed to miracles. They believe talent managers stand about idle, waiting for Moyes to walk so they can win the triple in their first season in charge. Call me negative or even a realist but we'd more than likely go backwards than forwards.
Until the money changes Moyes is the best thing. If the money changes we'd have to see how Moyes was with a good supply of funds.
And please don't mention recent purchases. Money is about wages as well as purchases. Moyes record in the transfer window is easily one of the best in the league.
The amount we spent the season before he left is misleading. Fans always talk of transfer spending and don't take other circumstances in the account. Take the Bent transfer, for example. He was bought by our D of F. I don't have a problem with this, as Defoe wouldn't sign a new deal, so we were looking to sell him and needed a replacement. However, we didn't sell Defoe for whatever reason, so it adds £16 million to our net spend. But when we bought Bent it would have been expected than ina few weeks time we'd get £10 million back for Defoe.
Also, Bent isn't an improvement on Defoe and wouldn't have been seen as such. The issue was Defoe wouldn't sign a new deal as he knew Jol's first choice was Keane and Berbatov. Following the Campbell free transfer, Levy wont allow us to have players with less than 2 years on their deal, unless they are old. So Defoe had to be sold and the the transfer policy at the time (put in place by Levy NOT JOL), was to buy younger players who would hold their transfer value, but also fit into our wage cap. Bents transfer fee might ahve been big, but he had a resale value. His wages were less than £45,000. So at a breif glance it seems as if Jol spent £16 million on a player that failed to take the club forward. But the reality is he was replacing another player of a similar standard, was not actually signed by Jol and had to fit into our compartively low wage cap. But there are so many more reasons why things went wrong in the end for Jol at Spurs and so few were of his own making. He was royally ****ed over.
The season before Jol left we finished 5th and our problem was we were conceding goals, as we had no decent DM and King was always injured and so lacked experience at the back. Jol didn't want to spend a fortune on transfer fees,he wanted to sign Distin for free and Scott Parker for £8 million. Both were older, more experienced and could do the exact job Jol wanted them to do. But both players were way out of our wage budget. So instead the D of F invested in the future and bought KPB instead of Parker and Kaboul instead of Distin. Between them they cost £14 million but were on far lower wages and were both only 20 years old, so it was hoped they'd go up in value. Yet if your team is leaking goals and you want to secure things up at the back, how on earth is signing 2 inexperienced 20 year olds going to help? So people can say Jol spent £35 million that summer, but it's firstly not really true and secondly doesn't in any way give a true reflection. But Jol paid the price for this and it's the exact reason he left Hamburg. At HSV they wanted a title challenge after a good first season, but Jol felt this was only possible if he ahd full control over signings. There was no way he was going to let another Tottenham situation happen. Jols biggest problem is that he rasies expecations too quickly.
At HSV they sold Van Der Vaart, De Jong and Kompany, made a net profit of 30 million and still achieved their 2nd highest points total for 20 years, got to the UEFA Cup 1/2 finals and German Cup 1/2 finals. This raised expectation to unrealsitic levels and Jol knew this, so unless he had full control over which players were signed he said he'd leave which he did. HSV backed the new coach and spent big, but had a disastour of a season, proving Jol right. Just as he was proven right after he left Tottenham. Sometimes a managers true worth can only be seen after he leaves a club. I suspect that will happen with Moyes.
Btw Jol didn't have Bale forced upon him, he specificlally requested both Bale and Berbatov.
Also, Bent isn't an improvement on Defoe and wouldn't have been seen as such. The issue was Defoe wouldn't sign a new deal as he knew Jol's first choice was Keane and Berbatov. Following the Campbell free transfer, Levy wont allow us to have players with less than 2 years on their deal, unless they are old. So Defoe had to be sold and the the transfer policy at the time (put in place by Levy NOT JOL), was to buy younger players who would hold their transfer value, but also fit into our wage cap. Bents transfer fee might ahve been big, but he had a resale value. His wages were less than £45,000. So at a breif glance it seems as if Jol spent £16 million on a player that failed to take the club forward. But the reality is he was replacing another player of a similar standard, was not actually signed by Jol and had to fit into our compartively low wage cap. But there are so many more reasons why things went wrong in the end for Jol at Spurs and so few were of his own making. He was royally ****ed over.
The season before Jol left we finished 5th and our problem was we were conceding goals, as we had no decent DM and King was always injured and so lacked experience at the back. Jol didn't want to spend a fortune on transfer fees,he wanted to sign Distin for free and Scott Parker for £8 million. Both were older, more experienced and could do the exact job Jol wanted them to do. But both players were way out of our wage budget. So instead the D of F invested in the future and bought KPB instead of Parker and Kaboul instead of Distin. Between them they cost £14 million but were on far lower wages and were both only 20 years old, so it was hoped they'd go up in value. Yet if your team is leaking goals and you want to secure things up at the back, how on earth is signing 2 inexperienced 20 year olds going to help? So people can say Jol spent £35 million that summer, but it's firstly not really true and secondly doesn't in any way give a true reflection. But Jol paid the price for this and it's the exact reason he left Hamburg. At HSV they wanted a title challenge after a good first season, but Jol felt this was only possible if he ahd full control over signings. There was no way he was going to let another Tottenham situation happen. Jols biggest problem is that he rasies expecations too quickly.
At HSV they sold Van Der Vaart, De Jong and Kompany, made a net profit of 30 million and still achieved their 2nd highest points total for 20 years, got to the UEFA Cup 1/2 finals and German Cup 1/2 finals. This raised expectation to unrealsitic levels and Jol knew this, so unless he had full control over which players were signed he said he'd leave which he did. HSV backed the new coach and spent big, but had a disastour of a season, proving Jol right. Just as he was proven right after he left Tottenham. Sometimes a managers true worth can only be seen after he leaves a club. I suspect that will happen with Moyes.
Btw Jol didn't have Bale forced upon him, he specificlally requested both Bale and Berbatov.
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Seamus Colemole
Previously deathbyropeandglass
My god what is your problem?
What nis your near obsession with claiming people, and i quote "WANT MOYES SACKED" when they haven't actually stated any such thing.
Some others may have done, but i at no point ever had yet after pretty much every reply i make to you you suggest i have.
Seems like in your world anyone who doesn't say MOYES IS GOD is therefor by default saying MOYES OUT.
I've pointed out what i see as Moyes negative points, same as i've pointed out his positive ones numerous times, then when you asked who could replace him i theorectically gave a name and explained why i thought he could (yes mate thats could) .
Its just talk on the internet, discussion. It really helps if you understand what the other person is saying rather than just putting words in their mouth and arguing against what you want them to be saying.
And just because some, i'd wager a minority do actually want him sacked doesn't mean the whole fanbase does. Does it?
Phil Neville Superstar
Player Valuation: £35m
Gone AWOL apparently
kenada_blue
Welcome to Barcelonaton FC
Eh?
Who says? He's injured apparantly. And the players were in training today.
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ToxtethBlue
Player Valuation: £50m
Supposedly hasn't been seen at Finch farm since the Newcastle game, that's according to a poster on another forum who's as reliable as lcab with his information.
Muggins
Player Valuation: £60m
I just stared at your post for 10mins, I'm still waiting for the magic eye to pop out...
wait hold up....
DionDublin
Player Valuation: £1.5m
Has he gone AWOL after falling out with our limited manager?
kenada_blue
Welcome to Barcelonaton FC
Brilliant.
Moyes had his man management works wonders again.
Another reason why we wont go anywhere. I guess itd be a lot worst if we spent loads and had a team full of moody chunts moyes couldnt handle
ToxtethBlue
Player Valuation: £50m
Bit harsh Kenada, if it is true, and that hasn't been proven yet, then Heitinga would be at fault for being a poor professional unless he has a valid excuse. He's a grown man, he should take responsibility for himself.
kenada_blue
Welcome to Barcelonaton FC
Ive said before in previous posts that you cant have a team of backslappers and loyal dogs to get places. Big players with big talents generally have egos that need man management.
Moyes has even admitted hes a tough talkin manager and hes had to tone it down. But it could still be a problem.
Weve seen fellaini and pienaar already snappin back and orders from moyes, now rumours of heitinga doin a runner.
If we spent lots of money and brought world class talent in, hed need to manage them well personally. From what it looks like, it seems not to be happenin with our foreign world cup stars and international youth.
Johnny could be fragile after the world cup...and it hasnt been addressed by the management. He clearly looks nothin like his former self from what ive seen...not tacklin, not sharp, not workin hard, he seems demotivated.
Its down to moyes to help him. And if he is moody and moyes cant handle it...god help him if he had chelseas team for eg
neonleon
Player Valuation: £35m
pathetic post. Hanging the manager out to dry on an unconfirmed rumour. And even if its true as TB says, why would that make Moyes culpable.
Fans like you really do deserve to see Moyes go.
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