New Everton Stadium Discussion

From today's Times, it's only a small mention but interesting nonetheless.

Richard Morrison: Will Liverpool be the first UK site to lose its Unesco heritage status?
Richard Morrison

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At a cabinet meeting this morning Liverpool city council will make history, one way or another. Either it will endorse a report recommending the reversal of a 12-year-old policy that allowed vast high-rise developments on its historic waterfront. Or it won’t. And if it’s the latter, Unesco — which warned the city last year that it was on the verge of losing its status as a world heritage site — will almost certainly carry out its threat.

That would be a shame, in both senses of the word. Liverpool would be the first of the UK’s 27 world heritage sites to lose its designation, and only the fourth in the world, after the Arabian Oryx Sanctuary in Oman, the Dresden Elbe Valley in Germany and Bagrati Cathedral in Georgia. Does that matter? Unesco doesn’t give any money to its world heritage sites, so Liverpool wouldn’t lose funding, but the impact on tourism would be painful.

Anecdotal evidence suggests that many American and Asian tourists structure their travels round Unesco’s list. Indeed, tourism chiefs in the Lake District predict a £20 million annual boost to the local economy now that the area has finally been granted world heritage site status, after 31 years of trying.

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The proposed development at Liverpool WatersPEEL LAND AND PROPERTY
Liverpool’s councillors have had plenty of warnings about what would happen if they pushed ahead with insensitive redevelopments. As long ago as 2013 Unesco placed the city on its “endangered” list. That warning was itself a belated response to the rash 2006 decision by the former leader of Liverpool city council Warren Bradley to scrap building-height regulations, which he described as “ridiculous”.

So why did Liverpool persist with policies that jeopardised its world heritage status? There are two answers to this. The more general one is that the city council has always had an ambivalent attitude towards Liverpool’s fine stock of 18th and 19th-century architecture.

In 2015, for instance, 400 characterful Victorian terraced houses in the “Welsh Streets” of Toxteth were saved from council-approved demolition only by the intervention of Eric Pickles, in practically his last good deed as communities secretary. Since then many of those needlessly condemned houses have been restored as desirable homes for local families — something that could and should have happened 15 years earlier.

The more specific answer, however, is that — as in London and Manchester — Liverpool’s councillors have gone tower crazy. In 2012 they granted outline planning permission for a huge, £5 billion Merseyside development called Liverpool Waters. As originally envisaged, it would have monstrously overshadowed the docks and thus demeaned the city’s history as the “second port of the Empire”.

Perhaps, in this era of lingering post-colonial guilt, some local politicians felt that to be a good thing, but Unesco didn’t see it that way. It ruled that the size and height of Liverpool Waters would “fundamentally adversely affect” the world heritage site. Unesco is also worried by Everton Football Club’s plan to build a new stadium in Bramley-Moore Dock, which is also inside the world heritage site. It’s not hard to see why. Yes, in theory a 21st-century stadium could be designed with such scrupulous sensitivity that it complemented the brick Victorian maritime architecture around it. The trouble is that when you look at the bland glass and steel stadiums erected in the past 20 years, you can’t imagine such a thing happening.

Happily, the signs are that at today’s meeting Liverpool’s councillors will toe the Unesco line. That means endorsing a “desired state of conservation report”, drawn up in conjunction with Historic England and the government, that recommends what “corrective measures” the city’s planners must take. They include a new cap on building heights and a scaled-down version of Liverpool Waters.

It’s obvious that this is the right way forward. Or is it? Heritage guardians and anti-tower activists are certainly jubilant about Liverpool’s impending U-turn. The architect Barbara Weiss, founder of the Skyline campaign against unsightly high-rises, says the change of heart comes “not a second too early” because the redevelopments are destroying “the city’s uniquely grand and severe beauty”.

Possibly, but the reasons Liverpool’s councillors approved the schemes in the first place — the urgent need to provide thousands more homes and jobs in a city still mired in reminders of chronic economic decline — haven’t gone away. New development is still needed. What Unesco has done is remind everyone that you don’t make a city great again by trampling all over its most characterful features.

Can’t have the city of Liverpool thriving now, can we?

We must remain in our place, lightyears behind London and Manchester!
 
I think there can be compromise, although it might mean going back to the drawing board on many aspects of the development all told...and that could delay the stadium.

Still can't see it effecting a < 40m tall structure at the far end of the zone that will sit within the dock walls. Be interesting to find out for sure though.
 
Liverpool needs to progress. I want Liverpool Waters to go ahead with huge skyscrapers and offer them lower business rates than Manchester do.

The World Heritage Status only came about because Liverpool was a thriving city and one of the World’s most important ports.

Anyone trying to stop our development, especially someone from UNESCO who doesn’t live in this city, can be told where to go. Or are we wanting to return to our ‘managed decline’ era?
 
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Indeed. That article hardly mentioned the ground, but when it did it made a swinging assumption that, to paraphrase, it will be crap/out of keeping.

How about it complements the site, and UNESCO say "Wowzers"?
A Lucas Oil stadium would fit right in, but it'd split the fanbase...not to mention push the costs right up I would imagine.
 
Liverpool needs to progress. I want Liverpool Waters to go ahead with huge skyscrapers and offer them lower business rates than Manchester do.

The World Heritage Status only came about because Liverpool was a thriving city and one of the World’s most important ports.

Anyone trying to stop our development, especially someone from UNESCO who doesn’t live in this city, can be told where to go. Or are we wanting to return to our ‘managed decline’ era?
It's a sacred cow though. It'll be a massive decision to slay it.
 
Seems to be the stadium design and development in isolation shouldn't be the issue. Meis isn't a dummy; if anything, a new stadium would enhance the status and help complement the already existing areas. Just tough to tell how the rest of the development would hurt the status, but hard to ignore that it wouldn't be a delay.

Well if the council wish to retain WHS for the site then there'll be no more additional high rise for this development, and I'd guess that would snooker intended plans...though I doubt also there wont be contingency development plans. There can be harmony on this, I just wonder about time factors though and the possible delays and associate costs from an EFC perspective.
 

With the tv deal being huge, do we really need to rely on massive hikes in tickets prices like @Dabluez Is suggesting? Can't we go in the opposite direction and make them even lower, do great family deals so we do end up selling 60k+ tickets and in turn make more money from the retail/hospitality side of things on matchday as more people = more folk spending dollar.

No we can't. Everyone in the Premier League gets the TV money. What differentiates the top Clubs from the bottom Clubs is the rest of your income. United and Arsenal for instance have match day incomes of around £100m. Spurs, Chelsea and Liverpool will in the near future meet or surpass those kind of figures. They earn huge amounts from ticket prices AND make money from retail/hospitality.

Then there is the cost of actually paying for the Stadium. If you add 20,000 seats for say £600m then that money needs to repaid.

A new Stadium only makes sense if it increases our income and allows us to compete because under FFP and the Premier League fair play rules Moshiri can only bankroll us for so long.

BMD can't simply be a vanity project it needs to make financial sense. At the moment we should forget about looking to one up the RS and look at what makes financial sense for Everton. That means upping our revenue per seat and adding Corporate/Hospitality facilities. We need a Stadium that we can fill week in week out and a Stadium that allows us to charge higher prices.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. The priority has to be the team and being successful. A state of the art scaleable Stadium with great facilities that holds 45-50k makes far more sense. It will mean lower repayments meaning more can be spent on players. It will mean we can drive up revenue per seat which is crucial and it will be far less risky.

Build the fan base, improve the team, increase revenues and expand the Stadium as we grow. It might not be sexy but it worked for United and it can work for us.
 
No we can't. Everyone in the Premier League gets the TV money. What differentiates the top Clubs from the bottom Clubs is the rest of your income. United and Arsenal for instance have match day incomes of around £100m. Spurs, Chelsea and Liverpool will in the near future meet or surpass those kind of figures. They earn huge amounts from ticket prices AND make money from retail/hospitality.

Then there is the cost of actually paying for the Stadium. If you add 20,000 seats for say £600m then that money needs to repaid.

A new Stadium only makes sense if it increases our income and allows us to compete because under FFP and the Premier League fair play rules Moshiri can only bankroll us for so long.

BMD can't simply be a vanity project it needs to make financial sense. At the moment we should forget about looking to one up the RS and look at what makes financial sense for Everton. That means upping our revenue per seat and adding Corporate/Hospitality facilities. We need a Stadium that we can fill week in week out and a Stadium that allows us to charge higher prices.

There is no such thing as a free lunch. The priority has to be the team and being successful. A state of the art scaleable Stadium with great facilities that holds 45-50k makes far more sense. It will mean lower repayments meaning more can be spent on players. It will mean we can drive up revenue per seat which is crucial and it will be far less risky.

Build the fan base, improve the team, increase revenues and expand the Stadium as we grow. It might not be sexy but it worked for United and it can work for us.

My take away message from all that ^^^ is, 'you're small time, dont think that you can get big gates, you cant. Know your place'.

Fits right in with your support for Firmino.

:coffee:
 
It's still very much a part of the central docks though. We can't now be downplaying that when it was THE attraction when this project was kicked off.

No one should downplay that fact but again I believe that has way more to do with the glass skyscrapers than a stadium which will not be the thing that drastically changes Liverpool's skyline or blocks the view of the three graces from the river. The closer to those the more the problem becomes magnified so being the furthest over must help.
 

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