New Everton Stadium Discussion

[Toffeelover]

No one seems to have mentioned this wee item, perhaps I am wrong but ;-

The principles were summarised as follows at evertonfc.com:

1. Our Fortress
Everton's objective is to challenge for all honours and play European football every season — and the new home is key to delivering this ambition.

2. A New Home for Everton
The club want the new stadium to feel like home to our fans from the moment they arrive.

3. A Platform for Growth
The Project can be a platform to compete at the highest level both on and off the field.

4. The People's Club
How the new stadium project will allow Everton to expand its 'People's Club' ethos.

5. An Iconic Landmark for Liverpool
How the club plans to uphold its tradition for innovation and leadership.

6. Easy to Get to, Easy to Get Home
Transport details surrounding the new project.

7. A Legacy for Goodison Park
Everton are committed to leaving a lasting, positive legacy for the L4 area.

8. Respecting Heritage
Through working with conservation agencies and Historic England, the club ensure that the development is sensitive to the history and significance of the site.

9. Harnessing the Environment
Everton plan to harness the unique features of this location to create an environmentally friendly and sustainable stadium.

10. Embracing Technology
The new stadium will embrace cutting-edge technology to support and deliver a unique entertainment experience.

11. The Right Deal for Liverpool
How the City of Liverpool will benefit financially from this deal.

All just waffle really but a statement has been made for folk to chew over. Suggest if you are members have a look under evertonfc.com.

 

[The binman chronicles]

I'm very concerned about the debt we'll shoulder from any stadium build at BMD. And I think that's entirely justifiable when you see what's happened to other major stadia build projects in the British Isles. The disparity between initial costs and the actual eventual/updated costs are frightening:

New Wembley stadium £240M inflated to £790M
Spurs Stadium £400M inflated to £850M
Chelsea £500M now anticipated to be £1 billion
Aviva stadium €250M inflated to €450M
And the bill for the redevelopment of Anfield has gone from £150M to an anticipated £260M

We are looking at a 100% overshoot on initial cost projections for BMD, perhaps more. Now whether that's starting at the £350M initially stated or the recent £500M figure, doubling either of those figures will land us with an almighty boulder that we have to keep pushing up a hill for decades.

This is too great a project for us to manage without partners to take the strain with us. Our situation is precarious in terms of how unbalanced are revenue streams are to support ourselves and we'll be exposed to many dangers over a long period.

The plan is flawed as I see it and if it's to continue we either need to scale down the project (not what most want), take a new model for funding it, or walk away.

Problem is Dave no one has a crystal ball to say what is a huge debt and what isn't. Back after we failed to raise the 30 million to buy into the Kings Dock scheme if someone had said you can have a world class stadium for 120 million, we would have bulked at the costs. 10-15 years on it would seem cheap at twice the price. Chelsea's new ground is starting to make Wembley look cheap.

In 10 years our 500 million effort could cost over 1 billion and possibly be out of reach forever. Or TV rights could ramp further upwards so every club could to double what they are getting now, meaning we could repay the stadium within a few years. It is impossible to tell but from what we have seen in the past while you have the means to do something it is better than waiting, who knows when another opportunity will come along.

 

[GwladysBlue]

Problem is Dave no one has a crystal ball to say what is a huge debt and what isn't. Back after we failed to raise the 30 million to buy into the Kings Dock scheme if someone had said you can have a world class stadium for 120 million, we would have bulked at the costs. 10-15 years on it would seem cheap at twice the price. Chelsea's new ground is starting to make Wembley look cheap.

In 10 years our 500 million effort could cost over 1 billion and possibly be out of reach forever. Or TV rights could ramp further upwards so every club could to double what they are getting now, meaning we could repay the stadium within a few years. It is impossible to tell but from what we have seen in the past while you have the means to do something it is better than waiting, who knows when another opportunity will come along.

Very good point.

 

[davek]

I appreciate your misgivings Dave, but no two ways about it the club will incur debt to build a new stadium. Spurs did, Chelsea will and even lesser clubs will incur debt to improve their facilities. Think if you want to house improvement have you the cash to do so or is it a loan? No club has that kind of cash lying around to do a stadium even (which will not happen) as kolk have talked to refurb GP would create debt. As you indicate it is the size that is of concern but ATM we have no idea yet only speculation but I do believe this has been looked into and plans laid to D/W.

I think from what's happened elsewhere for stadiums in our proposed bracket we can expect that sort of cost inflation. It would be a remarkable bucking of that trend if we kept this declared costing down to even a 50% overspend....and unlike those other clubs we have much less means to cover ourselves.

 

[davek]

Problem is Dave no one has a crystal ball to say what is a huge debt and what isn't. Back after we failed to raise the 30 million to buy into the Kings Dock scheme if someone had said you can have a world class stadium for 120 million, we would have bulked at the costs. 10-15 years on it would seem cheap at twice the price. Chelsea's new ground is starting to make Wembley look cheap.

In 10 years our 500 million effort could cost over 1 billion and possibly be out of reach forever. Or TV rights could ramp further upwards so every club could to double what they are getting now, meaning we could repay the stadium within a few years. It is impossible to tell but from what we have seen in the past while you have the means to do something it is better than waiting, who knows when another opportunity will come along.

Correct, we dont know. We dont know either what's to come for this industry and our place within it. That is frightening with circa £600M-£700M debt round out necks.

 

[Toffeelover]

I think from what's happened elsewhere for stadiums in our proposed bracket we can expect that sort of cost inflation. It would be a remarkable bucking of that trend if we kept this declared costing down to even a 50% overspend....and unlike those other clubs we have much less means to cover ourselves.

How do you know? Do you have a crystal ball?

 

[davek]

How do you know? Do you have a crystal ball?

What, beyond our annual handout from tv rights, do we have that's substantial?

 

[blueblue]

If we are going to wait until there is a guarantee on the finishing cost of the stadium then it will never be built and we will stay and stagnate at Goodison with all the restrictions that a ground with it's earning limitations has.

If this opportunity isn't taken up it will be lamented in the way that Kings Dock still is.

As has been pointed out by @The binman chronicles inflation actually reduces the cost of buildings quite quickly as anybody who bought a property on a long term loan will have found out over time.

I understand people having reservations but you can't demand NSNO and then baulk at a once in a generation opportunity to actually achieve NSNO.
We could probably build a stadium for 300m but then those worried about the risk would be given out about a lack of ambition and a sub standard stadium.

The opportunity and potential here is enormous. Visitors coming to Liverpool from abroad will be visiting Bramley-Moore docks to see the iconic new stadium . The new stadium will be part of any advertising campaign used to promote Liverpool City. It is much bigger than just a football stadium. It kick starts a multi billion pound project in that part of the city and going forward when the development is completed Everton will be situated in an area of the city where vast sums will be earned and spent every day.

 

[joey_macmo]

I said before the 500M re-jig it would hit 600M, I'll raise that to 750M
Also, I believe that Elstone stated at the AGM that if costs escalate they'll walk.

And funding WASN'T dependent on the Games, no not at all.

Watched Elstones speech a couple of times, thats news to me

 

[MickA]

If we are going to wait until there is a guarantee on the finishing cost of the stadium then it will never be built and we will stay and stagnate at Goodison with all the restrictions that a ground with it's earning limitations has.

If this opportunity isn't taken up it will be lamented in the way that Kings Dock still is.

As has been pointed out by @The binman chronicles inflation actually reduces the cost of buildings quite quickly as anybody who bought a property on a long term loan will have found out over time.

I understand people having reservations but you can't demand NSNO and then baulk at a once in a generation opportunity to actually achieve NSNO.
We could probably build a stadium for 300m but then those worried about the risk would be given out about a lack of ambition and a sub standard stadium.

The opportunity and potential here is enormous. Visitors coming to Liverpool from abroad will be visiting Bramley-Moore docks to see the iconic new stadium . The new stadium will be part of any advertising campaign used to promote Liverpool City. It is much bigger than just a football stadium. It kick starts a multi billion pound project in that part of the city and going forward when the development is completed Everton will be situated in an area of the city where vast sums will be earned and spent every day.

One thing that does concern me about LW, and I stand to be corrected if wrong, is that those of us who know Liverpool have heard this kind of talk for decades. While the stadium will be great and the new cultural building, river terminal, 10 streets for micro business etc let's not kid ourselves we're the new Dublin quays.

The city desperately need jobs, top of the range office space and blue chip investment/relocations. I'm not really seeing any great plan to improve the job situation drastically. It's all micro business and tourist/event revenue and that's not going to rival Manchester and the like.

 

[The binman chronicles]

Correct, we dont know. We dont know either what's to come for this industry and our place within it. That is frightening with circa £600M-£700M debt round out necks.

I'd rather die having a go than just sit and wait for it to happen. As the years go by we become more of an irrelevance to the football world, if we don't stand up soon then we are basically Tranmere mk 2.

Even in the good times we never updated the infrastructure and that allowed other clubs to steal a march on us, you say we need a team first but the players we need won't want to come to a club with small time vision. The stadium goes hand in hand with that goal, show the world we mean business or we may as well all go home.

A stadium on the docks when that area is all finished would be a massive selling point, the risk is small and worth taking.

I don't think we will suffer quite as badly when it comes to escalating costs as our stadium isn't going to be fitted out to the standards of the London clubs. Expect lots of bare walls, concrete floors, no cellings etc. around most of the structure.

 

[joey_macmo]

One thing that does concern me about LW, and I stand to be corrected if wrong, is that those of us who know Liverpool have heard this kind of talk for decades. While the stadium will be great and the new cultural building, river terminal, 10 streets for micro business etc let's not kid ourselves we're the new Dublin quays.

The city desperately need jobs, top of the range office space and blue chip investment/relocations. I'm not really seeing any great plan to improve the job situation drastically. It's all micro business and tourist/event revenue and that's not going to rival Manchester and the like.

Building started 2 weeks ago iirc

 

[davek]

I'd rather die having a go than just sit and wait for it to happen. As the years go by we become more of an irrelevance to the football world, if we don't stand up soon then we are basically Tranmere mk 2.

Even in the good times we never updated the infrastructure and that allowed other clubs to steal a march on us, you say we need a team first but the players we need won't want to come to a club with small time vision. The stadium goes hand in hand with that goal, show the world we mean business or we may as well all go home.

A stadium on the docks when that area is all finished would be a massive selling point, the risk is small and worth taking.

I don't think we will suffer quite as badly when it comes to escalating costs as our stadium isn't going to be fitted out to the standards of the London clubs. Expect lots of bare walls, concrete floors, no cellings etc. around most of the structure.

The choice isn't between something and nothing. The choice we should have is between going for full cost or taking on board a partner. I'd have preferred LCC to simply invest in this scheme. If we're that much of a driver for the whole of the north end of the city then surely they have to be able to meet their responsibility in investing in it. They'd get a stake like other municipalities have done on other stadium builds. As it stands they have a parasitical relationship with this club. That has been allowed because we have a man in control who just wants the stadium built ASAP so he can boost the value of his shares and scarper with no care of duty to the future.

 

[MickA]

Building started 2 weeks ago iirc

I've seen road improvements but very little news in the way of businesses relocating to the site or even any blue chip interest.

 

[Jacko93]

One thing that does concern me about LW, and I stand to be corrected if wrong, is that those of us who know Liverpool have heard this kind of talk for decades. While the stadium will be great and the new cultural building, river terminal, 10 streets for micro business etc let's not kid ourselves we're the new Dublin quays.

The city desperately need jobs, top of the range office space and blue chip investment/relocations. I'm not really seeing any great plan to improve the job situation drastically. It's all micro business and tourist/event revenue and that's not going to rival Manchester and the like.

That will all come to light relatively soon (5 years or so). Its been a fairly big 18 months for Peel and LW.