Ronald Koeman discussion

[Prevenger17]

Something changed last night.

I hope and believe so. Even the early run of victories and the fairly comprehensive win over West Ham didn't really lift me. The nature of those victories were routine, and the fundamental questions about our team's character never had to be addressed. Last night was different to those wins in every way.

 

[catcherintherye]

There are two well articulated “sides” to the debate on Koeman currently. One side arguing he should be under pressure for results another that last night has disproved that theory. It probably builds on a more long term debate which questions how far Koeman is to blame for our current poor run of form.

As I said, both sides make valid points in all of this. I think a third position, which most can agree on should be adopted. That is that yes he is not above scrutiny and could have performed better over the last 10 games, but also that any talk of sacking a manager after 6 months and one botched transfer window is premature. He deserves to be given time to build his team to be judged but also while managing other people’s players he could have been more pro-active in getting something out of them.

On a broader point tonight was the first time I watched us and thought “that looks like Koemans team”. We were competitive, aggressive and put a lot of balls into the box (scoring from 2 headers). If you look at my thread from the start of the season I anticipated that to be our strategic approach and for the first time today I thought we replicated his ambition to the standards he would want.

Some lads have given Koeman something to think about beyond just the next game but also beyond January. Primarily McCarthy who I would say was as good as gone before tonight. He pushed him further forward in to a box to box position and this is probably his best position. He is not as clever or good enough football to play in a 2 man pivot, but allow him to use his stamina and ability to press and cover the ground he looks a far better player. In short he looks the player that Spurs wanted to part serious money to bring in.

Barkley is another. I don’t think he was on his way out but I think Koeman was confused what to do with him. He has never looked a natural number 10 to me but looks far happier in himself playing a bit deeper as a midfield player. It’s counter intuitive as the 10 is the free role yet Barkley looks far freer and happier with more responsibility to dictate the pace from deep.

I am digressing slightly, but last night could be a real turning point moment. For Koeman and also for lads like Barkley, Valencia, McCarthy, Coleman, Williams etc. When we play like that, especially at Goodison we are a match for anyone. It is performances like that that have made us all look a bit stupid by saying it’s a squad with top 4 potential. The key has to be consistency.

Koeman showed bravery last night, putting Valencia in and then bringing on Calvert-Lewin and Mirallas. Hopefully that will continue and we can build some momentum going into January.

 

[Norwegian Cow]

So hang on a minute, it's Koemans fault if the players have underperformed (as they have done for almost every match for several years now) but Koeman gets no credit when they do preform at a high standard? You can't have it both way mate. The crowd lifted the players because the players lifted the crowd, it just shows what a joint effort between both can create. Everyone was brilliant last night and Koeman deserves credit for his part in that.

yes, and if it was so easy that only the crowd is responsible for the results, then why just dont the crowd cheer on them just as much every game.. ?

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

yes, and if it was so easy that only the crowd is responsible for the results, then why just dont the crowd cheer on them just as much every game.. ?

It's a sad state of affairs that the atmosphere has declined along with the playing standard. Last night was proof that we as fans don't need the players to play like Barcelona to get us on our feet going crazy. All it takes is dedication, pride, effort and commitment from the players and they'll have the best support going. When they lack passion they shouldn't be surprised to see the crowd also lack passion. Our long suffering fan base have put up with a lack of effort for far to long and that's why Goodison is dead most weeks unfortunately. The good news is that now the players know what they have to do if they want that type of passion from the fans, show it on the pitch and they'll get it in return.

 

[Khalekan]

Looks like you were right khal, I'll admit I was not looking forward to hearing the result. Sounds like the players got a massive shot in the arm.

I couldn't stand these absolute mellons launching and not taking responsibility for their actions, something worked last night by the sounds if it.

A loss with the players showing passion and desire I can accept, I'm made up that they located their bollocks and manned up to the task at hand....and won

You know, I am always like that, Chris.

No matter how bad things are going result wise, no matter what disharmony there appears to be in the camp, I wake up every matchday like a child on Christmas morning.

Full of excitement and wonder.....brimming with confidence, hope and expectation.

I can honestly say I have never, ever gone to an Everton game, home or away, believing we would be beaten.

 

[The Esk]

What this about Sunday then Esk?

Sorry only just seen this. There was a behind closed doors, clear the air meeting of players and management on Sunday which was very frank but focused on what needed to be done in future games.

After 20-25 mins last night it started to click .

I'm not going to get carried away, the squad is still as poor as it was last week but at least there was passion and drive and the fear factor disappeared for the final hour.

 

[hullefc]

There was for me the moment in the first half that showed the players cared and were prepared to fight for the cause. Barkley lost the ball and immediately threw in a tackle, followed by either McCarthy or Gueye then followed by either McCarthy or Gueye throwing in another, three very aggressive tackles on the bounce. The crowd was lifted and that in turn lifted the players. That sequence of tackles was the inspiration that was needed to get at Arsenal and knock them off their stride. If that was Koeman's doing - playing a pressing aggressive game - then well done and more of the same on Monday.

 

[hullefc]

Sorry only just seen this. There was a behind closed doors, clear the air meeting of players and management on Sunday which was very frank but focused on what needed to be done in future games.

After 20-25 mins last night it started to click .

I'm not going to get carried away, the squad is still as poor as it was last week but at least there was passion and drive and the fear factor disappeared for the final hour.

It was about time there was a players 'clear the air meeting' it couldn't come quick enough for me. The last 3 or 4 games the players have been having a go at each other, on the pitch so I suppose it was only a matter of time before this would happen behind close doors.

 

[blue61]

I want to see the same team starting (Jags excepted) against the darkness, with the same intensity. They shift the ball quickly like Arsenal, if we can knock them off their stride and show 'no fear', we can win. It's about flippin time.

 

[Tree13]

Sorry only just seen this. There was a behind closed doors, clear the air meeting of players and management on Sunday which was very frank but focused on what needed to be done in future games.

After 20-25 mins last night it started to click .

I'm not going to get carried away, the squad is still as poor as it was last week but at least there was passion and drive and the fear factor disappeared for the final hour.

Whilst I have my suspicions based on the demeanour of certain players last night, are there any rumours reaching your ears about anyone in particular saying anything in particular?

 

[Tree13]

There are two well articulated “sides” to the debate on Koeman currently. One side arguing he should be under pressure for results another that last night has disproved that theory. It probably builds on a more long term debate which questions how far Koeman is to blame for our current poor run of form.

As I said, both sides make valid points in all of this. I think a third position, which most can agree on should be adopted. That is that yes he is not above scrutiny and could have performed better over the last 10 games, but also that any talk of sacking a manager after 6 months and one botched transfer window is premature. He deserves to be given time to build his team to be judged but also while managing other people’s players he could have been more pro-active in getting something out of them.

On a broader point tonight was the first time I watched us and thought “that looks like Koemans team”. We were competitive, aggressive and put a lot of balls into the box (scoring from 2 headers). If you look at my thread from the start of the season I anticipated that to be our strategic approach and for the first time today I thought we replicated his ambition to the standards he would want.

Some lads have given Koeman something to think about beyond just the next game but also beyond January. Primarily McCarthy who I would say was as good as gone before tonight. He pushed him further forward in to a box to box position and this is probably his best position. He is not as clever or good enough football to play in a 2 man pivot, but allow him to use his stamina and ability to press and cover the ground he looks a far better player. In short he looks the player that Spurs wanted to part serious money to bring in.

Barkley is another. I don’t think he was on his way out but I think Koeman was confused what to do with him. He has never looked a natural number 10 to me but looks far happier in himself playing a bit deeper as a midfield player. It’s counter intuitive as the 10 is the free role yet Barkley looks far freer and happier with more responsibility to dictate the pace from deep.

I am digressing slightly, but last night could be a real turning point moment. For Koeman and also for lads like Barkley, Valencia, McCarthy, Coleman, Williams etc. When we play like that, especially at Goodison we are a match for anyone. It is performances like that that have made us all look a bit stupid by saying it’s a squad with top 4 potential. The key has to be consistency.

Koeman showed bravery last night, putting Valencia in and then bringing on Calvert-Lewin and Mirallas. Hopefully that will continue and we can build some momentum going into January.

Excellent post.

 

[The Esk]

Whilst I have my suspicions based on the demeanour of certain players last night, are there any rumours reaching your ears about anyone in particular saying anything in particular?

No I have no knowledge of that. I believe the focus was on the positive looking forwards and if anything was said it should remain behind closed doors.

 

[Tree13]

Don't worry about it mate, a couple of those hyenas you are talking about were hoping Everton got beat last season

As opposed to some on here who appear to have been hoping we'd lose last night?

 

[Abraders]

I want to see the same team starting (Jags excepted) against the darkness, with the same intensity. They shift the ball quickly like Arsenal, if we can knock them off their stride and show 'no fear', we can win. It's about flippin time.

Crying at 'the darkness'

 

[catcherintherye]

If as the Esk states there was a clear the air meeting it looks to have been times at the right moment, but also crucially it has had an affect. It is often important that there is an immediate response to those sort of meetings, as frankly you don't want to be holding them often and if there is little affect people can very quickly lose faith in the institution. In many ways they are something of a last resort.

That result last night was a perfect tonic. The body language and performance of McCarthy was noticeably different. He was like a different player in the space of 3-4 days. I know people will understandably say he should be playing like that every week but it's not ever that simple. If you look at it this way. Over the last two seasons he has played through an injury which affected his form. Then asked to perform a role that didn't suit him/bring the best out of him (just sitting). On the final day of last season he was given freedom, played very well and scored. A new manager then comes in, signs a lad who plays his position and linked with others. He's shoved to play out of position and then benched in a game after half an hour to change shape of the team when he was doing an unusual position ok for him. He then sees the new signing excelling in a role he may have fancied. There is then a subsequent argument with his national team manager and club manager with people publically questioning his fitness.

If this was any other workplace it is understandable that the employee would want to leave and in the interim their performance level would dip. Not all of the above is Koemans fault, or even most of it but maybe (and hopefully) McCarthy may have presented his side of things. Whatever happened he was a different player last night and put in the sort of performance we have been missing since he went off the boil. Barkley is another one, he looked rejuvenated.

January is coming and will be important. This one win cannot be allowed to sidetrack us from getting in players we need. However the number we needed to get in was becoming unmanageable. Hopefully some of the performances last night can be a building block to improved performances for some players that limit the quantity we require. Whichever way we look at it, getting in more than 3 will be difficult.

There are very few manager who re-invent the wheel (in any industry). What lots of good managers do is they can spot a change when it's presented to them and have the confidence and humility to see it and generalise their practice from it. Moyes and his famous 4-1-4-1 formation was actually forced upon him due to injuries to strikers. Cahill, Gravesen & Carsley worked and we found a way of playing for the next 5-6 years that worked.

Last night feels another of those moments. 1 Sitting midfielder, two box to box runners and 2 centre forwards on the pitch gave us the balance we needed. Each player looked like they knew their jobs and were happy to carry out what was being asked of them. Similar happened for the last 30 minutes against United. Valencia helping Lukaku (and freeing him up) with a more direct style in possession and higher pressure without it worked. The question will now be can Koeman run with the idea.

A final point for Koeman, he was brave last night and earned the bit of luck we had. We'd have all taken a point beforehand. He brought on Mirallas for Lennon and Calvert Lewin on for Valencia. Both were brave and attacking changes at 1-1.