Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

Martinez in or out?

  • In

  • Out

  • Getting splinters eating cheese on toast on the fence

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Lanolin said:
I can't get on board with the fine margins and bad luck thing.

Fine margins work both ways - if Cleverley hadn't scored in the last minute at Newcastle, a penalty had been given for Stones' tackle at City, Barry had been penalised for a blatant shirt pull at home to Palace, and McCarthy had been sent off for his tackle on Payet, we could be staring absolute disaster in the face.

Fact is, we only tend to look at the bits of fortune and luck that have a decisive impact on something. We can bemoan that the linesman didn't see the ball cross the line at City but are you telling me the same hasn't happened in our favour at any point? Of course it will have done, but we didn't take advantage of it by scoring, so we don't remember. Terry should have been flagged offside at Chelsea, he wasn't and he scored. Lukaku should have been flagged offside at Norwich, he wasn't but he missed. Same game, they had a sitter 6 yards out which was incorrectly flagged for offside. If the lad had scored we'd had have had a huge let off, we don't remember because he didn't. We were given a penalty at home to West Ham with a terrible decision, but we missed the pen and lost the game.

The luck has even itself out, unfortunately we haven't taken advantage of the bits that have gone our way.
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I can't argue that it would be strange if we didn't get any luck. Fact is though it won't even out over a season. It could come close but it could also be the difference between six or seven points.
I'm not gonna sit down and work it out. It's a gut feeling that it hasn't balanced out in terms of points. Probably not enough to take us into fourth or fifth but enough that if it does balance out in future we'd improve in the table. Point is I doubt it would get worse.
It's gone massively in our favour in the cup
 

hktoffee said:
We literally get all the gd against bottom 3 teams. It does not indicate anything regarding the ability of the team. 39 points and this get you 14th. Reality.
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I think the goal difference only equates to the fact that we can score all the goals in the world and yet still can't beat anybody who isnt going down already.

remember bournemouth/chelsea/stoke/west ham rack up 11 goals and 2 points

the bottom 3 equal currently 17 from 5 games.

That's over half the goals for straight away.
 
Ashtonian said:
I think the goal difference only equates to the fact that we can score all the goals in the world and yet still can't beat anybody who isnt going down already.

remember bournemouth/chelsea/stoke/west ham rack up 11 goals and 2 points

the bottom 3 equal currently 17 from 5 games.

That's over half the goals for straight away.
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Absolutely. We have 39 points. Facts.

When we got 4th our GD was -1...if my memory serves me right.
 

oldblue said:
Well yeah. Winning well and not losing by much or drawing too many is how you get a decent goal difference.
But unless you think this is totally unique to us it's an indication we'll go improve league wise.
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Them results have skewed the figures. Have a look at past league finishes and you will see all the teams with the best goal difference are at the top, the ones with the worst are near the bottom. So it is unique to us that we are in the bottom 3rd of the league with a top 3rd goal difference. It just doesn't happen.
 
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oldblue said:
I can't argue that it would be strange if we didn't get any luck. Fact is though it won't even out over a season. It could come close but it could also be the difference between six or seven points.
I'm not gonna sit down and work it out. It's a gut feeling that it hasn't balanced out in terms of points. Probably not enough to take us into fourth or fifth but enough that if it does balance out in future we'd improve in the table. Point is I doubt it would get worse.
It's gone massively in our favour in the cup
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I couldn't be bothered to work it all out either, but apparently somebody has. According to http://thehpl.net/1250-2/ we would be a whopping 2 points better off at the moment if all major decisions had been correct. Doesn't really support the idea that we've been massively hampered by bad luck.
 

Ashtonian said:
only thing that matters is how many points you have at the end of the season mate. doesn't matter how many goals you score if the other team can score just as many against you!
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Exactly.

And position is more important than points at the end of season.

4th during 2004-2005 is a greater achievement than the 72 points trophy which got us 5th.
 
catcherintherye said:
I never understand some of the nastiness to Martinez. He is a nice man, a kind, caring man. In many ways that is part of his difficulty, he is too nice and I think some of the players he walked all over him over the last two seasons. Lukaku has hung him out to dry with his comments and subsequent performances. Mirallas likewise. Howard hasn't made things any easier. Stones hasn't shown the responsibility he should. In Lukaku's case the behaviour is particularly galling as Martinez has done a lot for his career. The problem is though they have done it, because they've been allowed to do it.

Martinez has always said the right things about the fans. I appreciate that but it can't be that alone. If he is to stay I think he will need to have a major transformation in the summer, akin to what Moyes did in 2004.
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It is all a bit like the last days of Colin Harvey.

One hated oneself for wanting him gone because he was such a nice fellow.....but one also knew he wasn't up to the job and had to go.
 
Ashtonian said:
Answer to all of that is yes mate. I actually half expect us to win the cup, hence i haven't said we won't win it. If he won it with wigan he can win it with us, so not removing that possiblity.

Moyes was always going to be a risk and ultimate failure, personally i think its because he was here too long, so much so he set himself in a mind frame. Van Gaal almost got the United job in 2002 so that was ineviteble, the fact he is struggling in england does not remove his previous achievements, nor make you think negatively in hindsight before he arrived. Ranieri was always going to do a half decent job at Leisecter though, better than pearson anyway. Nobody expected them to be winning the league, but if they were 10th right now i would call that a respectful postion under him.

Thing is, a lot of my posts on Martinez actually talk about facts, not what ifs. So despite the contrary, i base my opinion on the manager from what the team actually do. I base it on his history, and how that went. I can only base it on the facts, which is the 14th in the league and poor form for 2 years. the only thing i can compare it to is Wigan, who went through a very similar drop in performance. One major difference between us and wigan is the quality of players here, take Ross and Rom out the team and swap them for kone and Cleverley (more wigan like). Do you think we wouldn't be in a relegation fight? Considering i am swapping them for two of his players, who he signed, it isnt bending the truth that they would be considered first team there. Hell take rom away alone and you have a massive hole in the team that we have a 5 minute player and aroune kone to fill. So it isnt unrealistic to suggest it at all.

but then again that is taking away from the only thing i can go on, the team and performances. the fact that we played both kone and Eto'o out wide under this manager is proof that our attacking fortunes rest on the brilliance of lukaku, not in spite of it. Lukaku is leaving, and if Martinez is still here then the only thing i have to go on is that in two years, he has shown he has zero ability to replace lukaku in the team, even for 15 minutes.
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Okay I'll give you that. Take away two of the best players from a team and don't improve on them and it may effect the team. Not sure how that is much more relevant to Everton than anyone else.
"Our attacking fortunes rest on the brilliance of Lukaku". You sure you're not playing a little to the gallery here.
But as you knew what would happen at Man u, not guessed, I'll stop debating
 

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