Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

Martinez in or out?

  • In

  • Out

  • Getting splinters eating cheese on toast on the fence

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Steve Wigan said:
...and in actual fact you are right. Similarly the often quoted 'Moyes is Fergusons mate' is complete tosh. SAF himself told me that his best friends in football were Jim Smith, Alex MaCleish, Sam Allardyce . Bryan Robson and Walter Smith. His bessie outside football is, surprisingly, Mick Hucknall,Tony Christie and a chap who is in his 90s(I think) who was his teacher, or scoutmaster when he was a kid. SAF choosing Moyes for Man Utd. was purely SAFs footballing decision (which he got horribly wrong, of course!!)
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Another very good point. I think they have a close professional relationship and a lot of mutual respect for one another as opposed to a closeness in friendship.

Unfortunately people struggle with the idea that Manchester United and the Board of Manchester United all unequivocally felt Moyes was the best option available to them, and far better than Mourinho. That has proven to be a little silly now and there's been a lot of back tracking. The idea though, that SAF got to pick the footballming manager for a billion pound PLC on the basis of it being his mate is fanciful stuff that is used to cover up a poor business decision.

As it happens I do think everything that has happened subsequently to Moyes being sacked has probably shown that overall sacking him may have been a little rash. They have spent hundreds of millions and are no better than they were under him (possible worse) and likewise Everton have plummeted to levels that were never reached under Moyes (ie consecutive bottom half finishes).

I can't see Moyes coming back here though. While Kenwright is quite a loyal man he has survived on his ability to gauge supporter opinion and pander to them where possible. Bringing back Moyes would put an awful lot of pressure on both Moyes and Everton that they wouldn't get from a new appointment.
 

oldblue said:
There's people with a lot invested in this club and they're not going to make decisions based on wild guesses about relegation and comparisons to Wigan.
I think if we want fans voices to be heard then it needs to be something relevant to them. Which is not to discredit any arguments but page after page of people egging each other on to say worse things about the manager won't influence a decision. But maybe it's fun. In which case I'll leave you to it again.
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you keep on promising this...I wish, just once, you'd keep a promise.
 
catcherintherye said:
Your disappointment in the polls appears to be because there was a poll. It wasn't that it was badly administered etc. I just think this is shooting the messenger a little bit. Polls aren't the problem. If you feel they are baiting fans, then maybe we need to engage with the fans who want Martinez gone more? But the poll itself is not the problem, it's just the messenger that people aren't best pleased.
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I'd totally agree polls are valid but you've provided the context yourself. 'People aren't best pleased'. Nobody could argue with that. But within that are a mass of varied opinions that I think become heavily influenced by whether they seem representative. Which shouldn't be the case.
Even if it is representative it provides a block view that means people on the fringes of it take to be theirs.
My feeling is that most peoples views on this are qualified but if you read this thread now it's a lot less considered than you'd see elsewhere on the site. Any context given to anything is turned on its head really quickly.
Not sure what can be done about it because I think a poll is fair enough but I think it's not really going to mean anything and in this circumstance does effect the balance. There's still a huge chunk of people apparently saying they want to stick with him but I'm sure if you added the posts up that wouldn't be reflected. That could mean the polls wrong or it could mean that this is no longer a safe haven for those views.
 

Sentinel said:
So that justifies running a poll to you? Fair enough, can't remember your Moyes Polls or Kenwright polls.
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As below;

The Esk said:
Appreciate what you say about people using tge site for news.

Polling has been a regular feature on this site for many years and if you search the polls using the search function you will find many Moyes out polls and indeed one or two Kenwright out polls plus numerous anti-board threads probably back to the inception of the site.

The polls are usually initiated by posters not necessarily moderators or @GrandOldTeam - they're interesting, not scientific in any sense but they do reflect the view of the active members of this site. Whether that's representative of the total fan base I don't know but it is a reflection of our posters views at any time.
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Any fan can login onto GOT, and run a poll.

Sentinel said:
Fair enough, can't remember your Moyes Polls or Kenwright polls.
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Cant remember Kenwright polls? There were lots. Here is another fan poll, one of the biggest threads in our near 10 year history;

https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/...d-thread-inc-bill-kenwright-blue-union.33472/

Same is true with Moyes. One example from many;

https://www.grandoldteam.com/forum/threads/moyes-in-or-out.43455/

Sentinel said:
100k interactions, that's impressive and to be congratulated, do you think you can hide behind that?.
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Hide behind what?

Sentinel said:
How many of them are match going supporters?
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I'm sure many are, but what is the relevance? Is a match going supporter of today, any more relevant than a fan who doesn't go the game?

Sentinel said:
Besides the deflection, you're still running an editorial. Daily Mail quoted today, Media sites, presuming this and Toffeeweb. Want Martinez out. Come here, there's only one impression you can get.
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We're a platform with over 4m posts from fans. Whatever editorial or impression you see, is reflective of those who login an contribute whatever they like.

With all the will in the world, there's no way we can dictate the view of those who choose to login an post.

Sentinel said:
Moderators post on the forum, don't claim neutrality.
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Our moderators are fans of the forum, who volunteered their time to help run it. I'm sure most on here will be glad they have an opinion, rather than be faceless robots...

Sentinel said:
You're a digital newspaper, like it or not. Hiding behind a wall of neutrality, suggesting that all we do is offer a forum for Evertonians to express their view. Calling BS on that.
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Hiding? Again that word, hiding from what? Call BS on whatever you want, what is the fundamental floor of your argument here, I think, is you're alleging we're running a selective poll. We're not, fans in this forum are - as they have, for near 10 years. You refuted seeing Kenwright/Moyes etc polls, alleging bias/editorial - well I've proven to you fan polls existed for all those topics, and pretty much every significant Everton topic there is. Name it, Kirkby, WHP, Elstone, Kenwright, Moyes, Rooney and there will be a fan who come on here and started a poll.

Sentinel said:
Run a poll, fine. Do it after there's nothing to play for. That's neutrality. Baiting when emotions are incensed, that's just pandering.
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Sentinel said:
If you are really neutral, let people rant. Fume whatever and Lord knows there is plenty to bitch about.
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See the contradiction you've just made?

Let people rant? But in the same sentence, we should close any of their polls until "there's nothing to play for"

So we should close this thread and tell fans "No Martinez discussion or poll until there's nothing to play for". Is that being neutral, letting people rant? To me, that would seem to be censoring the debate. If fans want to discuss the managers position on here, as long as it is civil we'll let them. As we always have.

Sentinel said:
If you mention Goodison park and "customers" again. Sorry, I must be lost. Sure, cater to the "customers", run a poll. Some of us have been here for awhile and taken everything the club can throw at us. We'll still be here, after Kenwright, Martinez, or Toffeweb and Grand Old Team for that matter. Polls and "customers" are temporary. Supporters are permanent. You're a flagship for Evertonians around the globe, act like it.
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Translation: I have a warped, narrow minded view of how this forum should act and you should act as I tell you, not as other fans do.

Appreciate any feedback but I find yours particularly contradictory and just all round odd.

Just to conclude, your entire rant was based on us running this poll. We didn't. A fan did;

Sentinel said:
If you are really neutral, let people rant. Fume whatever and Lord knows there is plenty to bitch about.
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The Esk said:
Polling has been a regular feature on this site for many years and if you search the polls using the search function you will find many Moyes out polls and indeed one or two Kenwright out polls plus numerous anti-board threads probably back to the inception of the site.
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I'm talking specifically about the timing of the poll. Regardless, I apologise if i came across that I was questioning that the site wouldn't run polls on current issues.

catcherintherye said:
I am/was always a big defender of Martinez mate and in all honesty I have yet to call for him to go. However what I could never get on board with is the complaints about polls. Last season when polling was done, it was always done at the same time after games, generally if we won, lost or drew for a period. There was a consistency in that and the polls fluctuated from game to game. I thought that was a valuable resource.

There was some critique of that method and we seemed to have moved to having 1 poll several weeks ago. I think the criticism has led to a inferior research piece as a result. I wonder how many people will have changed their views subsequently (probably towards more out than in.) Alongside that, if we go unbeaten in the next 4 games, and get a win at Anfield and in the semi I do wonder how many would turn back to wanting Martinez in?

There may be an alleged bias from Toffeeweb. I don't think they are massively biased, or at least any more or less bias than anyone else. I also think with polling that makes little difference. It is a click of a button, in a secure space not surrounded by others. If you compare that to say people joining in with songs surrounded by others at a match then the level of bias becomes more irrelevant.

I am not sure baiting is a fair option at all. Any good media outlet has a responsibility to reflect fans concerns while at the same time trying to keep it's integrity. I think if Toffeeweb were organising campaigns to get rid of Martinez then the allegation may stand, but running a poll I hardly think is baiting. In many ways not running a poll and being seen as oblivious may anger supporters more (as is often said of the Echo who at times are perceived not to be reflecting the supporters feelings in order to remain close to the club). It is a hard balance but not one that is crossed from polls.

Yes there are not polls about Kenwright or Moyes. I actually remember polls on Moyes and on Kenwright. The truth is though that never more than a vocal minority ever wanted Moyes out. It never got to the stage where it is with Martinez and he never went below 75-80% supporting him to stay as a manager. Kenwright was always different and I think websites were probably a bit too cautious with him, but again when Moshiri bought shares there was a poll.

Your disappointment in the polls appears to be because there was a poll. It wasn't that it was badly administered etc. I just think this is shooting the messenger a little bit. Polls aren't the problem. If you feel they are baiting fans, then maybe we need to engage with the fans who want Martinez gone more? But the poll itself is not the problem, it's just the messenger that people aren't best pleased.
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Great post. My problem isn't with the poll or the decision to run it. My point is, it's not the right time.
 
oldblue said:
I'd totally agree polls are valid but you've provided the context yourself. 'People aren't best pleased'. Nobody could argue with that. But within that are a mass of varied opinions that I think become heavily influenced by whether they seem representative. Which shouldn't be the case.
Even if it is representative it provides a block view that means people on the fringes of it take to be theirs.
My feeling is that most peoples views on this are qualified but if you read this thread now it's a lot less considered now than you'd see elsewhere on the site. Any context given to anything is turned on its head really quickly.
Not sure what can be done about it because I think a poll is fair enough but I think it's not really going to mean anything and in this circumstance does effect the balance. There's still a huge chunk of people apparently saying they want to stick with him but I'm sure if you added the posts up they'd be a huge percentage saying out. That could mean the polls wrong or it could mean that this is no longer a safe haven for those views.
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...aaaand he's back again.
 


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