Roberto Martinez discussion

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Wigan Athletic Wage Bills :-

2006 : 19.9 million
2007 : 27.5
2008 : 38.4
2009 : 42.2
2010 : 39.4
2011 : ~38
2012 : ~38
2013 : ~44

You're very welcome.

Exactly.

Under bruce they had the 15th largest wages in the league and when they stayed up under martinez they had the 15th, 15th and 17th biggest wages and then when went down they paid the 19th largest wages. The first time under the later two managers where they paid one of the lowest three wages they went down. That was something martinez couldn't cope with but Jewell who had the 18th lowest wages in both of his seasons, could.

The interesting thing about combining those two things from an outside point of view, is jewell spent 9 million net on transfers, bruce less than a million and Martinez made more than 11 million in the market. And the change seems to mean not less money being spent but rather a change of tactics. Jewell kept his team up (and indeed into the top half and to a cup final) while paying them basically championship wages (the third lowest wages in the league). By the time Bruce took over someone clearly decided that they weren't going to keep staying out of the bottom 3 without offering more money as wages than that as they wouldn't be able to either attract or keep players of the standard required.

Since then they've made an effort to be paying at least more money in wages than 3 to 5 other teams. (Though I suspect Whelan has a wage cap of 40 million and that's why Bruce left.) And they made up this money by not spending all their outgoing transfer fees.

Again I suspect Martinez had been told by Whelan that his wage bill has to be below 40 million and anything above 35 has to be funded by outgoing transfers. In short they were gambling that they're good enough at buying low and selling high to pay a wage good enough to attract players good enough for 17th. They're not gambling on a manager who uses tactics and motivation to get players on low wages to play better than the market dictates like they were under jewell (again they went down the season when their wage bill was one of the bottom 3 in the league for the first time since Jewell). The manager's main job, under that plan, is to raise money in the market, which Martinez and Bruce had done excellently in.

It was almost inevitable that when the other clubs around them started matching their wages without having to fund that by selling their best players that Wigan would go down, and so they did. Partly this can be put as a failing of the manager, Martinez simply wasn't capable of producing a team who over 38 games would perform better than their agents reckoned their players would, his team was basically the sum of it's parts. If he paid 50k a week to eleven players then his team played like a team worth 550k a week, managers like allardyce, moyes and jewell who favour organistaion and systems over individual brilliance tend to get their teams higher than the wage bill dictates, martinez didn't. But I think the financial situation was basically a strightjacket for him in that the need to sell to fund his own budget stopped him ever being able to advance his team as he had to tear it apart every year and it was almost inevitable he would fail eventually.

But the point was he was the only manager from wigan to not be given money for wages and also not be giving money for transfers so his job was harder than that of the previous managers and so you can't argue that he did a worse job than them, even if you ignore the FA Cup.
 

Is that you finally seeing the point others have been pointing out to you
I've never needed that obvious point needing pointed out. Its me being entirely consistent: keep the attacking play and get on top. Once you do that tighten up. It's not about stopping what we do best of all.

*sigh*
 
Here's what I know about Martinez's managerial career:

Resurrects a nothing team from South Wales, and they've never looked back since
Gives a nothing club from Greater Manchester their biggest moment in their history
Handed Everton its best PL effort and transforms our style of play

....I'm sure all that is nothing in your estimation. By most people's standards it adds up to a massive impact wherever he goes.

Not as mouth watering a prospect as Tony Pulis or Eddie Howe or Alardyce or whichever giant of the game you want at this particular moment in time as Everton manager, but not bad.

Or

Achieves as many promotions as your personal bete noir, the Ginger Biff
Tanks a secure Premier League club, while outspending his predecessors on salary and wages
Dines out on as many trophies as other managerial megastars as Alex McLeish, Harry Redknapp and Michael Laudrup
Manages a whole seven points more than the previous record, then becomes the first Everton manager to take us out of both cups in the first round and preside over incredible runs of 3 wins in 18 and 6 wins in 19.

I've no idea why the crowd boo Dave, I really don't. By the way, did you vote Conservative?
 
I've never needed that obvious point needing pointed out. Its me being entirely consistent: keep the attacking play and get on top. Once you do that tighten up. It's not about stopping what we do best of all.

*sigh*
I did not suggest that we stop our attacking play but you need balance. If you are losing you need to score, If you are winning you need to be able to defend and that might mean making subs. A lead in games is the balance point we as a team want, and when we have it we need to be able to preserve it. BALANCE
 

Here's what I know about Martinez's managerial career:

Resurrects a nothing team from South Wales, and they've never looked back since

I've never felt it was fair to credit this to martinez. They've had a succession of succesful managers of whom roberto was just one. Jackett got them out of the 4th flight, martinez out of the 3rd, rodgers out of the 2nd and Laudrup to their first trophy.

I think it's just a well run club.
 
Wigan truths as I keep hearing the same falsehoods about his valiant struggles to keep his team up

Paul Jewell 05-06
Spends 11m Sells 4m 7m net
Turns a newly promoted side to a mid table side with extra money from promotion. Finishes 10th

Paul Jewell 06-07
Spends 17m Sells 17m 0 net
Tries to rebuild side after 5 or 6 first teamers leave, finishes 17th

Chris Hutchins 07-Nov 07
Spends 12m Sells 12m 0 net
Loses 6 on the trot gets sacked in Nov

Steve Bruce Nov 07-08
Spends 5.5m Sells 1.7m 3.8m net
Bruce with some great bargains and a 5 mil striker keeps Wigan up finishing 14th

Steve Bruce 08-09
Spends 17m Sells 17m 0 net
Makes huge profit on his signing and selling Palacios in January. Finishes 11th

Roberto Martinez 09-10
Spends 13m Sells 18m -6m net
Huge profit made on two Bruce signings leave Wigan in 6 million profit as Bobby finished 16th in his first season

Roberto Martinez 10-11
Spends 10.5m Sells 2.3m 8.2m net
Spends a lot more than he sells, more than the season before's excess and romps to 16th

Roberto Martinez 11-12
Spends 8.5m Sells 7.75m 0.75m net
Loses one first team player, signs 3 new players to achieve his highest ever league finish of... 15th.

Roberto Martinez 12-13
Spends 7.3m Sells 9.2 -1.9m net
Sells Moses buys Kone. Gets relegated and wins a cup.

So between 09-13 his net spend was about 1 million and he took a team that finished 14th then 11th to the Chamionship.
In that same time period that clueless horror that is David Moyes had a net spend of about -18 million and kept his team between 6th and 8th.

Interesting, and it suggests (as you of course try to show) that Martinez were underperforming as Wigan manager compared to what Moyes did at Everton in the same time space.

However it is hardly evidence of anything, it`s merely one indicator, and probably not the best one.
What kind of caliber players are willing to go to Wigan compared to Everton?
And another, probably much more revealing indicator as to the quality of the squad - What was Wigan`s wage bill compared to Everton?
I suspect less. Much less.
 
For those of you unsure, Martinez was Wigan boss
2009–2013 Wigan Athletic

Ho ho ho.

http://www.totalsportek.com/money/english-premier-league-wage-bills-club-by-club/

According to this, we've also put 10% onto the wage bill since his arrival as well.

The stats lads, they just don't add up. And here's the key one that matters - 6 wins in 19 games.

Jabba_the_Hutt.png
 
For those of you unsure, Martinez was Wigan boss
2009–2013 Wigan Athletic

Ho ho ho.

http://www.totalsportek.com/money/english-premier-league-wage-bills-club-by-club/

According to this, we've also put 10% onto the wage bill since his arrival as well.

The stats lads, they just don't add up. And here's the key one that matters - 6 wins in 19 games.
Cut it out now mate, enjoy your night....You're metaphorically kicking a dead cat. It's clear for anyone to see, all questions have been answered, all the stats have been shown...You have a few chancers left....hiding behind the same opinions they were hiding behind 12 months ago....whilst the stats have continued to paint their own picture.

It's pretty telling those left hiding behind opinions are the ones who keep saying

'You can do what you with stats to paint any picture'

That's fine....

When was the last time someone posted stats that covered all bases, which shed him in a positive light?

I'll answer it was this time last year...you know....when stats were allowed,

what were they?

Oh yeah 72 points this, record points haul that, 5th placed finish this....unluckiest team (which we were) to not get CL with the points we achieved.

That's when stats mattered, they don't anymore.

If Martinez picks up then great, will he? I seriously doubt it.
 
I've never felt it was fair to credit this to martinez. They've had a succession of succesful managers of whom roberto was just one. Jackett got them out of the 4th flight, martinez out of the 3rd, rodgers out of the 2nd and Laudrup to their first trophy.

I think it's just a well run club.

It's also ignoring the impact Paulo Sousa had the following year. Five successful appointments in a row.
 

Wigan truths as I keep hearing the same falsehoods about his valiant struggles to keep his team up

Paul Jewell 05-06
Spends 11m Sells 4m 7m net
Turns a newly promoted side to a mid table side with extra money from promotion. Finishes 10th

Paul Jewell 06-07
Spends 17m Sells 17m 0 net
Tries to rebuild side after 5 or 6 first teamers leave, finishes 17th

Chris Hutchins 07-Nov 07
Spends 12m Sells 12m 0 net
Loses 6 on the trot gets sacked in Nov

Steve Bruce Nov 07-08
Spends 5.5m Sells 1.7m 3.8m net
Bruce with some great bargains and a 5 mil striker keeps Wigan up finishing 14th

Steve Bruce 08-09
Spends 17m Sells 17m 0 net
Makes huge profit on his signing and selling Palacios in January. Finishes 11th

Roberto Martinez 09-10
Spends 13m Sells 18m -6m net
Huge profit made on two Bruce signings leave Wigan in 6 million profit as Bobby finished 16th in his first season

Roberto Martinez 10-11
Spends 10.5m Sells 2.3m 8.2m net
Spends a lot more than he sells, more than the season before's excess and romps to 16th

Roberto Martinez 11-12
Spends 8.5m Sells 7.75m 0.75m net
Loses one first team player, signs 3 new players to achieve his highest ever league finish of... 15th.

Roberto Martinez 12-13
Spends 7.3m Sells 9.2 -1.9m net
Sells Moses buys Kone. Gets relegated and wins a cup.

So between 09-13 his net spend was about 1 million and he took a team that finished 14th then 11th to the Chamionship.
In that same time period that clueless horror that is David Moyes had a net spend of about -18 million and kept his team between 6th and 8th.

That would be a great post if it was the truth but sadly it's not is it??

Moyes' spend certainly wasn't -18 million as you well know.

There's no point in even analyzing the Wigan figures as there's a blatant nonsense sticking out like a sore thumb at the bottom.

There's certainly no point in even discussing the sheer stupidity of comparing Everton and Wigan anyway but hey ho if that's were you see us then so be it.

Please don't post lies to suit your agenda though, it makes rational discussions completely irrelevant.
 
That would be a great post if it was the truth but sadly it's not is it??

Moyes' spend certainly wasn't -18 million as you well know.

There's no point in even analyzing the Wigan figures as there's a blatant nonsense sticking out like a sore thumb at the bottom.

There's certainly no point in even discussing the sheer stupidity of comparing Everton and Wigan anyway but hey ho if that's were you see us then so be it.

Please don't post lies to suit your agenda though, it makes rational discussions completely irrelevant.

Ah, another post where we are asked to whitewash over his Wigan era... oh, apart from the Cup of course.

Agendas eh. You voted Conservative didn't you, you little rascal.
 
Or

Achieves as many promotions as your personal bete noir, the Ginger Biff
Tanks a secure Premier League club, while outspending his predecessors on salary and wages
Dines out on as many trophies as other managerial megastars as Alex McLeish, Harry Redknapp and Michael Laudrup
Manages a whole seven points more than the previous record, then becomes the first Everton manager to take us out of both cups in the first round and preside over incredible runs of 3 wins in 18 and 6 wins in 19.

I've no idea why the crowd boo Dave, I really don't. By the way, did you vote Conservative?

Spent more than anyone whilst at Wigan. You sure?
Dines out on a cup win...unlike say Moyes or any of your favoured replacements Pulis, Alardyce or Howe?
Ha Ha Ha...yes, manages a whole 7 points more and smashes through the 70pt barrier.
Did I vote Conservative? I'd rather have Moyes back.
 

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