Roberto Martinez discussion

[toffeejack]

One of the primary reasons that expectations are reducing is that competition in the PL Is greater now than it was 5 and certainly 10 years ago.

Not only have the big 4 grown stronger as revenues and investment pile in, other clubs Spurs, Stoke, Crystal Palace have benefited from decent balance sheets, decent P&L accounts and importantly investment.

In the meantime we have traded +/- small operating profits, sometimes transfer related profits, debt reduction and no investment.

We have performed a miracle to produce the results we have on the pitch over the last 15 years, however we have been taken over resource wise by so many clubs and this is now reflected in our expectations.

That's the legacy of this board and the reason new owners with the ability to invest significantly (not through debt) is so important now. Every year that goes by makes the job of the incoming owners more difficult.

all correct and as silly as it sounds, this season we're closer to actually being title contenders than we ever were under moyes, due to the more level playing field the premier league has become over the last few years. I think the big 4 have got drastically worse and have spent money very poorly and that is one contributor.

But i think people's main issue is that for the quality of the squad we have (the best i've seen in our premier league history), we should be doing better, and that's not indicative of the financial side of things. If we compare our squad to that of stoke, palace etc. we should be doing better than them.

 

[davek]

If it was moyes you would want him out.
Whatever your fascanation is with martinez at some point you have to look at the facts and be realistic mate

I gave Moyes support from 2002 to 2009 before wanting him gone. Have a go at that type of loyalty yourself.

BTW here's the realism: Martinez is our manager and will continue to be so for many seasons yet. No one outside these echo chamber forums think the way you do. Most people outside them see a marvellous attacking team being created that needs tightening up defensively. Sorry if that frustrates you. It's the way it is.

 

[Bluesoulrebel]

I had 2 crumpets with butter and what. Shower time.

Feet don't fail me now....x

 

[The Esk]

I accept we don't have the biggest finances. But it's really not a money issue from what I see. It's shocking defending and a manager backing a pathetic has been goalkeeper. We have the tools. But we are self harming so to speak.

For sure as I said in the match thread defending is a forgotten art under Martinez, but we are in this position because of the board.

A properly resourced club with the stature and ambition of Everton (supporters) should never be in the position of expecting Martinez to produce a masterful defence - its just not his strength.

In a properly resourced club we would not have appointed Martinez in the first place.

 

[Bluesoulrebel]

I gave Moyes support from 2002 to 2009 before wanting him gone. Have a go at that type of loyalty yourself.

BTW here's the realism: Martinez is our manager and will continue to be so for many seasons yet. No one outside these echo chamber forums think the way you do. Most people outside them see a marvellous attacking team being created that needs tightening up defensively. Sorry if that frustrates you. It's the way it is.

I feckin' do......sent with love

 

[TommyDavo]

Feet don't fail me now....x

Still not got the crumpet

 

[toffeejack]

Not a chance as that's part of a bigger problem.

We lose the ball and we are WIDE open. We play possession. When we lose it, we are incapable of winning it back effectively and quickly leaving acres of space on the flanks. Any chance a side has attacking us is terrifying as you can carve us open with 3-4 passes.

We panic at set-pieces. We don't have a dominant aerial player.

He's crafted a great attacking side but shows zero ambition to improve the back.

he's bought mori, galloway, holgate and foulds already. We definitely need a bit more experience there in the first team; but he has shown ambition to improve that aspect, right from the youth level where he recognised we weren't so strong in.

 

[TheHumbleEgg]

Not in his dna look at wigan when he was there.
It happens game after game and nothing changes i think the job is to big for him

And nor will it...

“Even for the short-term it is not going to give you success in the long-term. Are we going to concede goals? Of course we are. Are we going to lose games? Of course we are. But it’s important we know the way we want to play and that is never, ever going to be changed.”

 

[catcherintherye]

I'll write a bit more tomorrow when hopefully I've calmed.

I think the overarching frustration many have, including increasingly myself is we seem to repeat the same mistakes. Sunderland at home, Bournemouth, Norwich, Leicester and now again today. All games where we have thrown away advantages or just conceded too many goals.

Giving away easy goals can eventually become normalised. I worry thats what has sunken into the players, that it's normal to give goals away.

I understand the argument that Howard is central to it. He really is. The understandable counter is over a period of time Martinez has gone out of his way to back Howard. We could have got someone in last January and we failed to act. Again we could have done the same in the summer and we failed. Letting another transfer window slip buy would be a huge mistake for Martinez and give the form of Howard I'm not sure one that he may be able to recover from. He's an anchor around his ankles.

It's hard to knock what Martinez is trying (with some success) to do. To bring through young players and style them in a no fear outlook. But you do need balance. Life is all about checks and balances. Can we really have two young centre halves, a teenage left back, an offensive right back and a midfield containing Barkley/Deulofeu/Kone and realistically expect to be solid enough defensively? What's utter madness is people calling for Barry to be axed too for more attacking/inexperienced players!

That is before you throw in the clown in goal. I appreciate Martinez values his experience and is a man who is unwilling to shift on his principles, but sometimes when reality is hitting you square in the face you do have to compromise on certain principles. The first to go in my book would be Howard.

If we continue as we are I can see the quality of attacking football continuing to improve but I don't see us consistently being able to stop goals. I have listed the games above, this is in an 8 or 9 game run that we have 5-6 calamity games! It is not an anomaly anymore it is the norm for us.

We really have to think fast now. We need a commanding centre-half and a new goalkeeper. If people have to be sacrificed in order to do that so be it, as the current model we have now doesn't work. We should all remember Kendal in 86 saw weakness in a great team, sold Lineker and brought in Dave Watson. We won the title. Few would have forecast that back then.

 

[ToffeeTim]

For sure as I said in the match thread defending is a forgotten art under Martinez, but we are in this position because of the board.

A properly resourced club with the stature and ambition of Everton (supporters) should never be in the position of expecting Martinez to produce a masterful defence - its just not his strength.

In a properly resourced club we would not have appointed Martinez in the first place.

Yea that's all fair. The board definitely don't have anywhere near the ambition they should. But equally we are certainly not a bottom half club, and there should be no phil neville esque justifications for it.

 

[kenada_blue]

Brought through a young England CB and bought a young Argentinian international; brought through a young CB and adapted him to LB. Key word here is young. They need to learn quickly to shut up shop.

Which won't happen as they've gotten progressively worse as a unit.

Again, he failed to fix this at the start of the season in buying 1 inexperienced centre back for a lot of money, and letting 2 go.

I'm all for blooding youth but this isn't the way to do it.

 

[Allezfan]

I gave Moyes support from 2002 to 2009 before wanting him gone. Have a go at that type of loyalty yourself.

I was just talking about that at the Newcastle game, actually. And yes, you are a topic of conversation at actual games. Be very proud.

I was saying that it's weird that people like yourself who were mostly positive about Moyes during his time here are so disparaging of him in retrospect.

As someone who was passionatly anti moyes and butted heads with the likes of you, chico and brennan over it, it does take me back a little that history has been so unkind to him in your eyes.

 

[evertony]

All this business about should be better than Stoke, Palace, West Ham and Watford etc is baffling....we're at the halfway stage and there's about 4-5 points difference between the lot of them. When Dancing Brave won the Arc he wasn't mentioned until the final furlong....just saying like.

 

[catcherintherye]

And nor will it...

“Even for the short-term it is not going to give you success in the long-term. Are we going to concede goals? Of course we are. Are we going to lose games? Of course we are. But it’s important we know the way we want to play and that is never, ever going to be changed.”

The problem with it is that it is a long term issue that we have. In the history of football sides who concede the number of goals we are currently never win anything.

The other thing Roberto has to accept, is that his attitude can come across as blaise which can filter into the players (I think it has done when it comes to conceding).

I admire his positive stance. That is the right way to be. If a goal goes in, don't fear it look to control the next phase of play as it's gone. However if people keep making the same mistakes, sometimes an old fashioned dressing down is needed.

 

[Coffee and TV]

The problem is that everything Martinez does is good apart from his organisation of a defense. Even the players he buys for the defense are promising. It feels like the only thing missing is his teams being able to defend but that is such an important thing that the lack of it should put his job on the line IMO.