The 2015 Popularity Contest (aka UK General Election )

[The Esk]

This is the same con trick they played back in 97..... Trust us, we will behave responsibly just like the conservatives.....then screw it up again as every other Labour government has done.....

It's said that you cannot fool all of the people all of the time, yet Labour supporters always stick to the same bunch....just for once forget the political dogma, try to imagine that the Tories don't want to eat your children and look at how they have transformed a country from an economic shambles to one of the strongest in just a few years....

Good narrative Pete, but completely untrue. Tell me again how Labour screwed the economy? Upto the global financial collapse of 2008 Labour recorded 4 surpluses in 11 years despite massive catch up spending on health, education and social services after the Thatcher/Major years.

The deficit post 2008 was the result of the collapse in tax revenues not overspending.

Oh and by the way who was the architect of the global solution to the financial crisis? Our very own Gordon Brown....

 

[Ashtonian]

So who did destroy the economy. Who raised the UK borrowing. Who ruined the pension schemes. Who oversaw the banking crisis. Who allowed unprecedented and chaotic immigration.......oh I forgot, it was the USA........

the banking crisis where A bank messed up, not all of them?

Who ruined the pension schemes? Well the conservatives are doing a pretty good job of ruining them now

Who raised uk borrowing? Im sure that was such a massive issue caused by them, i mean it does involve massive cuts with the new guys to resolve it, nothing to do with them wanting to implement them anyway?!

immigration, i'll give you that one. That is something i disagree with myself, not the issue of it but the scale that happened.

 

[peteblue]

the banking crisis where A bank messed up, not all of them?

Who ruined the pension schemes? Well the conservatives are doing a pretty good job of ruining them now

Who raised uk borrowing? Im sure that was such a massive issue caused by them, i mean it does involve massive cuts with the new guys to resolve it, nothing to do with them wanting to implement them anyway?!

immigration, i'll give you that one. That is something i disagree with myself, not the issue of it but the scale that happened.

So you agree, it was Labour......

 

[peteblue]

Good narrative Pete, but completely untrue. Tell me again how Labour screwed the economy? Upto the global financial collapse of 2008 Labour recorded 4 surpluses in 11 years despite massive catch up spending on health, education and social services after the Thatcher/Major years.

The deficit post 2008 was the result of the collapse in tax revenues not overspending.

Oh and by the way who was the architect of the global solution to the financial crisis? Our very own Gordon Brown....

And why was there a collapse of tax revenues and why have they now increased....

Gordon Brown, saviour of the planet, the man who did away with bust and boom....sorry Esk, but I saw the misery that man brought to savers, those building a pension and those that used to work in the few world class industries we had....

 

[The Esk]

And why was there a collapse of tax revenues and why have they now increased....

Gordon Brown, saviour of the planet, the man who did away with bust and boom....sorry Esk, but I saw the misery that man brought to savers, those building a pension and those that used to work in the few world class industries we had....

The misery he brought to savers? That wouldn't be because of low interest rates would it?

The taxing of dividends in pension schemes was a response to the effect of partial imputation brought about by the 1973 Conservative Government. Effectively Companies were distributing profits to pension fund shareholders with zero payment of tax. Advance corporation tax was paid on the element of profits distributed as dividends and then the pension funds were reclaiming the tax on the dividends.

Hence there was a huge incentive for companies to pay large dividends to pension funds with no tax revenue at all paid to Government. Why should any Government permit that to happen?

 

[Seanjd]

the few world class industries we had....

Thatcher sorted that out already though...

 

[peteblue]

The misery he brought to savers? That wouldn't be because of low interest rates would it?

The taxing of dividends in pension schemes was a response to the effect of partial imputation brought about by the 1973 Conservative Government. Effectively Companies were distributing profits to pension fund shareholders with zero payment of tax. Advance corporation tax was paid on the element of profits distributed as dividends and then the pension funds were reclaiming the tax on the dividends.

Hence there was a huge incentive for companies to pay large dividends to pension funds with no tax revenue at all paid to Government. Why should any Government permit that to happen?

So that pensioners could have a good company pension, spend it and pay VAT, and pay normal personal taxation on it.......it's better to have money in the hands of the people than the dead hands of government......

 

[peteblue]

Thatcher sorted that out already though...

I knew it must be her fault.......do you have any other records.......

 

[The Esk]

So that pensioners could have a good company pension, spend it and pay VAT, and pay normal personal taxation on it.......it's better to have money in the hands of the people than the dead hands of government......

Dividend yields averaged approximately 3% in the time Brown was Chancellor. Lets say the average pension fund was 50% invested in equities. The maximum effect the tax change had amounts to no more than 37.5bps (0.375 %) per annum. Hardly destroyed the pension industry or pensions did it? Especially when pension fund TERs run at anywhere from 100 to over 200bps (1 to 2%) p.a..

Meanwhile it generated £5bn a year to be spent on schools and hospitals amongst other things.

 

[Ashtonian]

So you agree, it was Labour......

Where did i blame labour? lol

I am saying perhaps, just perhaps, the issues we had financially were fabricated by a new government who could not get the majority to begin with trying to solidify themselves by implicating the former government for the reason why they are cutting so much and raising the cost of everything they can get away with.

Ok, one question to ask you. considering Labour were formerly financially controlled and now led by Gordon brown, why on earth would Labour put the financial status of the country in such a bad situation (as we are led to believe by the conservatives) that the only solutions would go against everything the party stands for and therefore would damage their credibility when either they failed economically or put measures in place to 'fix the problem'?

 

[peteblue]

Where did i blame labour? lol

I am saying perhaps, just perhaps, the issues we had financially were fabricated by a new government who could not get the majority to begin with trying to solidify themselves by implicating the former government for the reason why they are cutting so much and raising the cost of everything they can get away with.

Ok, one question to ask you. considering Labour were formerly financially controlled and now led by Gordon brown, why on earth would Labour put the financial status of the country in such a bad situation (as we are led to believe by the conservatives) that the only solutions would go against everything the party stands for and therefore would damage their credibility when either they failed economically or put measures in place to 'fix the problem'?

Labour no longer have beliefs, they just want power and the ability to make a good living afterwards......

 

[peteblue]

Dividend yields averaged approximately 3% in the time Brown was Chancellor. Lets say the average pension fund was 50% invested in equities. The maximum effect the tax change had amounts to no more than 37.5bps (0.375 %) per annum. Hardly destroyed the pension industry or pensions did it? Especially when pension fund TERs run at anywhere from 100 to over 200bps (1 to 2%) p.a..

Meanwhile it generated £5bn a year to be spent on schools and hospitals amongst other things.

Companies closed their final salary pension schemes which were far better than the crap available now. You can spend £5Bn on the NHS or let the pensioners have the £5Bn in pensions which will probably keep them in better health. It was a typical socialist act in destroying company pensions.......

 

[Ashtonian]

Labour no longer have beliefs, they just want power and the ability to make a good living afterwards......

Again the tory viewpoint in a nutshell lol

So labour have no ideas now? they have not come out with anything of their own in the past 5 years? They have never opposed conservatives in any way?

look im not doing the whole im a labour supporter, because to be honest they havent impressed me and especially millaband as a leader, which i am sure is echoed on this thread by many. I am not doing the one vs the other argument, i simply am debating against the conservatives.

 

[The Esk]

Companies closed their final salary pension schemes which were far better than the crap available now. You can spend £5Bn on the NHS or let the pensioners have the £5Bn in pensions which will probably keep them in better health. It was a typical socialist act in destroying company pensions.......

Pete, defined benefit schemes closed because companies and individuals could no longer fund the hugely costly benefits they promised. The costs were huge because we moved into a low interest rate environment causing Gilt yields to fall (universally seen as a positive) and much higher life expectancy than previously expected by actuaries.

Alternatively, of course, companies could have asked shareholders to stump up the cash to fix the gaping hole on their balance sheets caused by unfunded pension promises, thereby reducing equity prices and capital for future investment. I think not!

 

[peteblue]

Again the tory viewpoint in a nutshell lol

So labour have no ideas now? they have not come out with anything of their own in the past 5 years? They have never opposed conservatives in any way?

look im not doing the whole im a labour supporter, because to be honest they havent impressed me and especially millaband as a leader, which i am sure is echoed on this thread by many. I am not doing the one vs the other argument, i simply am debating against the conservatives.

I said they don't have beliefs, not ideas. Their problem is that they have too many cunning ideas.......

I saw a good quote that went something like....... "If we argue about the things that we see differently we are going to spend our whole lives arguing, if we work on the things we agree on, we will spend our lives working.”