The 2015 Popularity Contest (aka UK General Election )

jaycee · February 21, 2015

Seanjd said:
No, we aspire to be like fairer countries who treat their most vulnerable with more respect than we do.

"The measure of a civilisation can be judged on how it treats it's weakest members".

if thats the case god help us

Bruce Wayne · February 21, 2015

Seanjd said:
The very same argument could have been made in 1999 when Labour introduced the minimum wage. As it turns out, it meant that few companies could get away with paying its employees too small an amount. As it turns out, with the decline of Union support, the minimum wage was desperately needed.

and has the minimum wage made poverty less of an issue? It's been in place now for 15 years so has had a decent run. What has its impact been?

Seanjd said:
No, we aspire to be like fairer countries who treat their most vulnerable with more respect than we do.

"The measure of a civilisation can be judged on how it treats it's weakest members".

Czech isn't some backwater mate, it just has lower living costs. For instance you can get a decent family sized home for £100,000. That means wages don't need to be so high.

Seanjd · February 21, 2015

Bruce Wayne said:
and has the minimum wage made poverty less of an issue? It's been in place now for 15 years so has had a decent run. What has its impact been?

lol Czech isn't some backwater mate, it just has lower living costs. For instance you can get a decent family sized home for £100,000. That means wages don't need to be so high.

Well, the lowest paid are certainly in a better position than they would be if there were no minimum wage.

You are backing up my point. We need to raise the minimum wage over the next 5 years because we have higher living costs than the minimum wage implies. That's why the living wage is named so.

roydo · February 21, 2015

Seanjd said:
No, we aspire to be like fairer countries who treat their workforce with more respect than we do.

"The measure of a civilisation can be judged on how it treats it's weakest members".

Isnt that down to everyone though? Not just a government.

Seanjd · February 21, 2015

roydo said:
Isnt that down to everyone though? Not just a government.

It's primarily down to a government as they can change people's standards of living.

Bruce Wayne · February 21, 2015

Seanjd said:
Well, the lowest paid are certainly in a better position than they would be if there were no minimum wage.

You are backing up my point. We need to raise the minimum wage over the next 5 years because we have higher living costs than the minimum wage implies. That's why the living wage is named so.

That's the thing though isn't it? If the productivity goes up then that's great as the employer gets more value and the employee gets the higher wage. If just the wage goes up though, then the employer will increase the price of their products to offset the increase in costs, so relatively speaking no one is better off.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w6127 seems to suggest that in net terms, minimum wages don't do anything to really help alleviate poverty. If you can make people more productive however, that will do wonders.

roydo · February 21, 2015

Seanjd said:
It's primarily down to a government as they can change people's standards of living.

Maybe. But paying folk more money does not mean they/we treat the weakest members of society any differently.

But we are a pretty decent society by and large imo. Little to do with which party is in Downing Street.

Seanjd · February 21, 2015

Bruce Wayne said:
That's the thing though isn't it? If the productivity goes up then that's great as the employer gets more value and the employee gets the higher wage. If just the wage goes up though, then the employer will increase the price of their products to offset the increase in costs, so relatively speaking no one is better off.

http://www.nber.org/papers/w6127 seems to suggest that in net terms, minimum wages don't do anything to really help alleviate poverty. If you can make people more productive however, that will do wonders.

Your study is American, it's a totally different demographic. However, you use it now to argue that minimum wages are ineffective, rather than our previous debate of the rising of the minimum wage. I am assuming, then, that you are against the minimum wage full stop?

Clint Planet · February 21, 2015

Seanjd said:
What is the alternative?

Wealth redistribution. Or revolution. I'm cool with either.

Clint Planet · February 21, 2015

Bruce Wayne said:
and has the minimum wage made poverty less of an issue? It's been in place now for 15 years so has had a decent run. What has its impact been?

Hard to say since we've nothing to measure it against. It's reasonable to asume that, without it, the situation would be even worse, though.

Bruce Wayne · February 21, 2015

Seanjd said:
Your study is American, it's a totally different demographic. However, you use it now to argue that minimum wages are ineffective, rather than our previous debate of the rising of the minimum wage. I am assuming, then, that you are against the minimum wage full stop?

I think it looks at things from the wrong angle. Whether we like it or not, we're trading in a global market now. Raising the minimum wage won't make someone more valuable to an employer, them being more skilled will do, and better wages will flow from that. That would be a better place to focus energies I think.

Clint Planet · February 21, 2015

Seanjd said:
Your study is American, it's a totally different demographic. However, you use it now to argue that minimum wages are ineffective, rather than our previous debate of the rising of the minimum wage. I am assuming, then, that you are against the minimum wage full stop?

Dude, he thinks unions should be abolished. Draw your own conclusions.

Bruce Wayne · February 21, 2015

As you can see from the above, productivity has barely budged for the last 10 years. It's always going to be hard for wages to rise whilst that remains the case.

Seanjd · February 21, 2015

Bruce Wayne said:
I think it looks at things from the wrong angle. Whether we like it or not, we're trading in a global market now. Raising the minimum wage won't make someone more valuable to an employer, them being more skilled will do, and better wages will flow from that. That would be a better place to focus energies I think.

"Since the introduction of the minimum wage, the hourly wages of the lowest paid workers have increased by more than the increase for the median worker. This is in stark contrast to the period before the introduction of the minimum wage when the hourly wages of the lowest paid increased by much less than those of the median worker. It should be noted that in both periods there were substantial increases in the hourly wages of the highest paid workers."

http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/lms/l...efore-and-after-the-national-minimum-wage.pdf

Here's one based on the UK

Clint Planet · February 21, 2015

Inequality is bad for the economy and bad for society. The minimum wage (and, moreso, the living wage) are designed to combat inequality and are affordable. Simple as that.