Conscientious objectors

[Bruce Wayne]

Very good program on CO's by Ian Hislop on at the moment. Opinions?

 

[Reidy's Bottle Of Grecian]

why force someone into the army if they dont want to be in, most are happy to spend it behind bars or doing community work instead. if it's against someones conscience then would you want them out on patrol with you ?
a guy i knew in france was doing work with mentally disabled instead of his national service, he opened a letter one day to find a cheque to cover the cost of work clothes as if he'd been in the army or the nick he wouldve been clothed by them, apparently he later recieved a food allowance as they wouldve fed him as well.
i was exempt from any call-up as i worked somewhere that gave me exemption, i cant tell you anymore as i would have to kill you.
* taps nose, strokes fluffy white cat

 

[Slight_Return]

has a point about the bravery of the individual who takes a stance against the opinion of the crowd.

 

[Neiler]

I object sometimes, but other times i cant be arsed!

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The more I learn of WW1 the more of a barbaric waste of life it appears to have been. Thousands upon thousands lost in minutes on the western front. It saddens me each time Remebrance Day comes around that as a species we still seem no nearer to living in peace with each other. It seems a terrible stain on the memory of the millions that have given their life in the name of peace yet we still seem so quick to look to kill other human beings.

 

[Goat]

Horrible race Humans, no animal has the urge to kill its own like Humans, when i come back im gonna be an ant.

If people dont wanna fight, then why force them, there is surely enough war hungry people in the world.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Excellent piece here in New Scientist about warfare and why we do it.

How warfare shaped human evolution - life - 12 November 2008 - New Scientist

Now a new theory is emerging that challenges the prevailing view that warfare is a product of human culture and thus a relatively recent phenomenon. For the first time, anthropologists, archaeologists, primatologists, psychologists and political scientists are approaching a consensus. Not only is war as ancient as humankind, they say, but it has played an integral role in our evolution.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Bruce only read the start so far mate but isn't it fairly obvious?

These ideas emerged at a conference last month on the evolutionary origins of war at the University of Oregon in Eugene. "The picture that was painted was quite consistent," says Mark Van Vugt, an evolutionary psychologist at the University of Kent, UK. "Warfare has been with us for at least several tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of years." He thinks it was already there in the common ancestor we share with chimps. "It has been a significant selection pressure on the human species," he says. In fact several fossils of early humans have wounds consistent with warfare.

No [Poor language removed] sherlock.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I think the point of the study is that society in its current form supports warfare because of the way humans (men in particular) have evolved.

For instance it suggests that men form aggression outside a group and cooperation within a group. Interestingly men are even more likely to contribute to that group effort when in competition with other groups. It's certainly not too far fetched to see our country as a part of that group and indeed football hooliganism shows that trait off rather well. You could also probably substitute religion or various other groups that people belong to as well.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Ah, all appears to be common sense to me though Bruce.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

With the 20th century being the bloodiest in mankinds history it doesn't appear to have been common sense to our political leaders. Or if it was they certainly didn't act upon it.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

I see what you are getting at but I didn't need 'anthropologists, archaeologists, primatologists, psychologists and political scientists' to tell me;

"Warfare has been with us for at least several tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of years."

I mean, c'mon? What a silly quote.

"It has been a significant selection pressure on the human species," he says. In fact several fossils of early humans have wounds consistent with warfare.

Thats nearly better

Several participants presented the strongest evidence yet that males - whose larger and more muscular bodies make them better suited for fighting - have evolved a tendency towards aggression outside the group but cooperation within it."There is something ineluctably male about coalitional aggression - men bonding with men to engage in aggression against other men," says Rose McDermott, a political scientist at Stanford University in California.

Scientific breakthrough from Rose there that men bond with men, so say.... gangs to engage in fights with other gangs of men

Aggression in women, she notes, tends to take the form of verbal rather than physical violence, and is mostly one on one. Gang instincts may have evolved in women too, but to a much lesser extent, says John Tooby, an evolutionary psychologist at the University of California at Santa Barbara. This is partly because of our evolutionary history, in which men are often much stronger than women and therefore better suited for physical violence.

Ah, so men are better equipped for physical violence? Woah! Who would have thought it. Next they'll be telling me serotonin is an instigator to male violence...

I'll stop there....

 

[chicoazul]

The destruction perversely was slowed down with the introduction of the atomic bomb.

As a Westernised society we are guilty of many ills, such as picking and choosing our battles. I hate reading on the news about x amount of death on the African continenet while we sit by and watch.

Petty politics is the handcuffs of the UN.

 

[Bundy]

I think as society moves further away from a consequense of there actions then there will be more evil. People like the idea of evolution because it means there will be no consequence for their actions.

 

[Robert Jarvis]

We all know war isw horrible and a waste of life except of course politicians, greedy presidents etc who do not give a [Poor language removed] for the ordinary person.

However if everyone had been a conscientuous objector we would now be speaking German, working as slave labour, etc etc.

Weidersehn!