Is 7th and "Net Spend" The Only Reason To Keep Moyes

[zirc]

I think that Moyes isn't as good in the transfer market as we think but better tactically than we think. Football fans tend to overrate their club's players.

 

[Brennan]

Having a sense of perspective, that's what option there is. You're expecting the moon on a stick & because Moyes can't deliver it, you're advocating change without a logical argument to back up your stance imo.

As it stands, I think you're going to get the change that you crave in any case, as I'm convinced Moyes has already decided to move on. Maybe your perspective on Moyes tenure,may alter in a year or so's time, as without change in the boardroom we can realistically not expect more than we currently have, whether we like it or not.

Agree with the first part. If we change manager and don't win a trophy in a few seasons and drop a few places in the league, what then ? Change manager over and over ?

It's stupidity. People seem to want change for the sake of change.

 

[micknick]

Board has to go before Moyes does.
When Moyes has been given the resources we've done well. Look at this season. yeah we've had a rough patch lately but we've played some of the best football in the league. Limited resources will only take you so far, it's up to the board to push us further.

Are you me?! Exactly what I would say

 

[Moomin]

Are you me?! Exactly what I would say

I have the same train of thought as well, shall we all make a human centipede of love?

 

[glorydaze]

How exactly does the Board push us further, a genuine question. Sell to a Billionaire ?, borrow beyond means? Who in the current climate would take the chance and deliver what is being touted, new manager and trophies.

 

[Brennan]

How exactly does the Board push us further, a genuine question. Sell to a Billionaire ?, borrow beyond means? Who in the current climate would take the chance and deliver what is being touted, new manager and trophies.

Here we go.

You do not need to be a billionaire to improve us financially. £5m a season would be a start. Moyes once went 2 years without signing a first team player ffs.

But you're right, nobody is going to buy us in the current climate. Well, not when Blue Bill wants £125m for a club with no assets and £50m of debt.

 

[Stend]

You mean the squad he built? that squad?

What you're saying there contradicts itself. As you're saying on one breath Moyes has bought well & has purchased players of a quality that is better than his budget, but because of that skill he's shown, that the expectation in terms of performance of that squad should be better than double what his budget is........so, you acknowledge that his skill has created a squad that is capable of massively out performing the budget given, & yet you're still advocating a change of manager. It makes zero sense.

Managers live or die by their purchases & it's the arguably the key skill in modern football management - which is greatly exacerbated when the manager has limited funds & therefore little margin for error.

Park the 'messiah' argument btw, as no-one has labelled him as such in this debate, so it's an inane comment.

Without labelling him a Messiah. The media would have you believe he's one. He's not. Far from. He uses the transfer market fantastically probably THE best in England.

On the pitch though. I think there's better managers and I don't think a manager sole ability should be judged on what he spends. He has a quality squad.

 

[EvertruvianMan]

When Moyes signed his last contract had it ran down and he was in a position to walk? By that I mean did he sign up for more years as manager with years already on his contract to see through? IIRC we went right down to the wire last time round and his reasoning was 'lets get to summer and see where we stand then as fafing about with my contract now in the middle to the closing of a season wouldnt do the team or the club any good'.

So he has (IIRC) got a bit of form for playing the waiting game and signing up for more years as boss when he could as easily walk. And IIRC last time round he got a substantial amount to play with in the transfer market - did he bust our transfer record and get Fellaini that specific summer?

For what its worth I reckon Moyes wants to push on again and have a much better stab at cracking the CL places. If he is going to be given the nod to do so in the summer OR NOT will be the deciding factor in whether he stays or not.
Also, I perceive his strengths to be the regime change he enacted (fitness fitness and more fitness) a team ethic of never say die (at least in the league anyway) and a shift in big game preparedness (by which I mean once we would turn up against the lesser media darling sides and grind out points whereas now we tend to turn up when the spotlight is on and give the media darlings a bloody nose from time to time). His transfer history is nothing short of spectacular - in his 11 years I cant think of another manager that has made so many budget (very low) transfer dealings pay off in such the manner as he has - not specifically the turn around in transfer fees and net profits but actually bringing a variety of players in that have either stayed and improved the side or taking chances on players considered damaged goods and coaxed their qualities out of them and turned them into Prem regulars.
Cant stand his substitutions mind you nor whichever tea bags are used before cup games compared to the tea drank before playing the exact same sides in the league.
His eye for a bargain has been the catalyst for our reversal in fortunes both playing wise and financially. Without the monies generated by his transfer dealings and the transfers off the backs of those decisions we wouldnt be a prem side any more and would be languishing somewhere alongside Sheff Weds or Derby.

A lot is being made of how it is thought he has lost the dressing room and is messing the club and fans around over the contract thing but maybe, JUST MAYBE he is putting pressure on Bill and the rest of the board to put their money where their ambition is and push the club on.

 

[Brennan]

Without labelling him a Messiah. The media would have you believe he's one. He's not. Far from. He uses the transfer market fantastically probably THE best in England.

On the pitch though. I think there's better managers and I don't think a manager sole ability should be judged on what he spends. He has a quality squad.

He has a quality first eleven.

Heitinga
Neville
Naismith
Oviedo
Anichebe
Mucha
Duffy

Is not a 'quality' bench.

 

[Stend]

He has a quality first eleven.

Heitinga
Neville
Naismith
Oviedo
Anichebe
Mucha
Duffy

Is not a 'quality' bench.

That bench is better than at least 12 other premiership teams....

 

[Brennan]

That bench is better than at least 12 other premiership teams....

I'm not sure what your point is. We do not have a bench that is anywhere near the quality of our first eleven. We do not have a 'quality' squad.

 

[EvertruvianMan]

He has a quality squad.

Disagree. Re-word it and say he has a quality first 14 and then I'd agree. It is the over reliance on said 14 that has seen us stall, we simply have no quality in depth to change things significantly. I have long said that we do have a plan B and it is that plan B being Fellaini getting us goals that has seen us tread water at the top end of the table, we have relied on that plan B because plan A being Jelavic has been so far off the pace that its like hes a different player. My concern with bringing a Negredo type in would be that Jela might feel hes being pushed out like Bent did when Beattie was brought in. Do we have the space in the squad and more importantly a weekly 16 or starting eleven for two out and out goal machines? Can we afford it? Can we keep the prized assets we have already and fulfill their respective personal ambitions?
Every summer is make or break for us and almost all other clubs. I hope the increase in TV money (generated by over seas increased TV rights only!!!) stays in all clubs and isnt just siphoned into the pockets of agents and players like the last increase was, and the one before that, and the once before that and so on.

 

[Philw]

What a strange argument.

If it is that straightforward why don't all managers do it?

By the way we signed Pienaar from Dortmunds reserve team, he was not rated at all by them. The skill of being able to identify and improve through coaching the likes of Pienaar is why Moyes is rated so highly.

Yet you want rid of him.

Yes, but unfortunately there is more to management than just that. Moyes has some areas of management that he excels in, but overall he is not an excellent manager.

Anyone who can't make the straighforward & bleeding obvious correlation between player funding budgets & success, needs their bumps felt.

It's a subject that's been done to death & the arguments against have more holes than a swiss cheese.

Moyes is playing a game that I personally don't like at present over his contract, but to decry the mans achievements during his tenure by labelling him a bottler & attempting to create some form of argument that player funding isn't key to success in the EPL of 2013, is agenda driven nonsense imho.

Except there isnt a direct correlation. Obviously more money helps, but it is a guarrantee of success. Just look at Liverpool or who is winning the league this year? It's not Man City or Chelsea, but Utd. Whilst they have spent plenty over the years, they haven't thrown money at their team like the others have.

You mean the squad he built? that squad?

What you're saying there contradicts itself. As you're saying on one breath Moyes has bought well & has purchased players of a quality that is better than his budget, but because of that skill he's shown, that the expectation in terms of performance of that squad should be better than double what his budget is........so, you acknowledge that his skill has created a squad that is capable of massively out performing the budget given, & yet you're still advocating a change of manager. It makes zero sense.

Managers live or die by their purchases & it's the arguably the key skill in modern football management - which is greatly exacerbated when the manager has limited funds & therefore little margin for error.

Park the 'messiah' argument btw, as no-one has labelled him as such in this debate, so it's an inane comment.

I disagree massively with that. It is but one of many important factors, and certainly not the most important. Look at Ferguson. He's had some good buys in the TM, but also some massive failures/dissapointments, yet they, and he, are the team/manager of the last 15-20 years.

I think that Moyes isn't as good in the transfer market as we think but better tactically than we think. Football fans tend to overrate their club's players.

Board has to go before Moyes does.
When Moyes has been given the resources we've done well. Look at this season. yeah we've had a rough patch lately but we've played some of the best football in the league. Limited resources will only take you so far, it's up to the board to push us further.

Are you me?! Exactly what I would say

I have the same train of thought as well, shall we all make a human centipede of love?

I agree the board needs to go. Would you guys agree that some change has to happen for the sake of the club?

 

[EvertruvianMan]

That bench is better than at least 12 other premiership teams....

Call your bluff. Name em.

 

[Brennan]

Yes, but unfortunately there is more to management than just that. Moyes has some areas of management that he excels in, but overall he is not an excellent manager.



Except there isnt a direct correlation. Obviously more money helps, but it is a guarrantee of success. Just look at Liverpool or who is winning the league this year? It's not Man City or Chelsea, but Utd. Whilst they have spent plenty over the years, they haven't thrown money at their team like the others have.



I disagree massively with that. It is but one of many important factors, and certainly not the most important. Look at Ferguson. He's had some good buys in the TM, but also some massive failures/dissapointments, yet they, and he, are the team/manager of the last 15-20 years.








I agree the board needs to go. Would you guys agree that some change has to happen for the sake of the club?

Ferguson is an exception to the rule. He's in a position where his club can spunk £40m on players and if they're all jarg he's still sound.

Doesn't work like that for the majority. You'll get cash (or not), and how you spend that cash dictates your job generally.