Where will the club be in 5 years time. I see no strategy.

[davek]

billycopper: "I'm by no means a supporter of Kenwright's". Lol.

Thing is mate, you can contextualise all you like but the crushing failure of the Kenwright ownership years are there for al to see -

• no success on the stadium front
• zero investment
• sale of nearly all tangible assets
• debt increased
• tied into poor commercial deals
• no silverware

What have you got to hold onto in terms of a substantial counter-argument? It appears to basically boil down to claiming for Kenwright what are, in reality, Moyes' achievements.

It's been 13 years of wasted opportunity and wasted resources....it's been an utter failure.

Finesse away, but there's no getting round that. Only a contrarian would argue the opposite viewpoint.

 

[noharmdone]

 

[billycopper]

Just for reference, the shirt deal Newcastle were looking into with Wonga would have been £32m over four years, or twice what our deal with Chang is worth per year.

Are Newcastle twice as big or well recognised a club as we are ?

This ties in with what I said to Davek...

1) The North East is mostly synonymous with Newcastle. Wonga will get more brand awareness across the whole of the region than they would if they sponsored us.
2) They're trophy-less for much longer than us but the neutral with perceive them as being a big club and they've had European football recently.
3) They were televised even more than Chelsea last year.
4) I presume that strong brands on Tyneside including Virgin Money would have competed for the rights and pushed the price up.
5) Demographically-speaking there isn't as much variation in the North East as there is in the North West, so most people are likely to be their target customers.

 

[Allezfan]

I think it's maybe more a case of no direct or obvious financial reward. The owners of these clubs are often self-made multi-millionaires and serious business people. I find it hard to believe that they would throw millions into a black hole just for the sport of it. With Henry for example it seems like a case of transatlantic branding to connect Liverpool and the Red Sox which paves the way for brands such as Warrior to enter the UK marketplace. Maybe it's similar with Etihad and City. Whereas Spurs seems to have close links to the music promoter AMG and was hoping to partner with them at the Olympic Stadium.

Exactly, it's about prestige and brand marketing and making a name for themselves.

This theoretical asset stripping hard nosed buisnessman who buys football clubs and doesn't care about the on field success if he can sell all the players to a dog food company instead just doesn't exist. Alan Sugar tried it and found it nearly impossible to make a profit.

The examples you named have all put millions more into their clubs then Kenwright has into ours. It's just scaremongering to suggest an investor in a football club will be more intrested in profits then on field success. That's not how football club investment works.

People need to stop thinking about football clubs as buisnesses because they're not. They're not allowed to fail, they're not designed to make profits, they don't make a lot of money for their size etc, etc. They're run much more like a funded theatre, or an art gallery or a mueseum. Not designed to turn a profit so much as provide a service.

 

[billycopper]

billycopper: "I'm by no means a supporter of Kenwright's". Lol.

Thing is mate, you can contextualise all you like but the crushing failure of the Kenwright ownership years are there for al to see -

• no success on the stadium front
• zero investment
• sale of nearly all tangible assets
• debt increased
• tied into poor commercial deals
• no silverware

What have you got to hold onto in terms of a substantial counter-argument? It appears to basically boil down to claiming for Kenwright what are, in reality, Moyes' achievements.

It's been 13 years of wasted opportunity and wasted resources....it's been an utter failure.

Finesse away, but there's no getting round that. Only a contrarian would argue the opposite viewpoint.

1) Stadium. I'm sure that it's an absolute mission and I wouldn't want to be the person trying to make it happen.
2) Investment. We don't know the ins and outs. Have people come forward who would be interested in putting money into the club but Kenwright has rejected it because he doesn't want his shareholding diluting? Are we uninvestible? Who knows.
3) Assets. How do you mean? Our assets are on the pitch: Fellaini, Baines, Jagielka, Mirallas, Jelavic...
4) Debts. We need a larger stadium to increase revenue so that we don't keep running at a loss. We can't build a stadium without outside investment. There is a global recession.
5) Deals. See the post about shirt sponsorship.
6) Silverware. As I've said before the cups are a lottery and we've got no chance of the league or europe.

I don't think you understand how difficult running a business is. The fact that it's a football club and that your customers feel like your business belongs to them makes things even harder. We've probably done very well just to stay afloat never mind to have a team capable of challenging with Spurs and Arsenal, so to complain that it's been an "utter failure" seriously misses the point.

 

[Goat]

Wow....

 

[billycopper]

Exactly, it's about prestige and brand marketing and making a name for themselves.

This theoretical asset stripping hard nosed buisnessman who buys football clubs and doesn't care about the on field success if he can sell all the players to a dog food company instead just doesn't exist. Alan Sugar tried it and found it nearly impossible to make a profit.

The examples you named have all put millions more into their clubs then Kenwright has into ours. It's just scaremongering to suggest an investor in a football club will be more intrested in profits then on field success. That's not how football club investment works.

People need to stop thinking about football clubs as buisnesses because they're not. They're not allowed to fail, they're not designed to make profits, they don't make a lot of money for their size etc, etc. They're run much more like a funded theatre, or an art gallery or a mueseum. Not designed to turn a profit so much as provide a service.

I'm sure that we've looked over the edge of the precipice in recent years. If we hadn't been able to sell Arteta then maybe the banks would have pulled the plug? Have you seen how many theatres, galleries and museums are going to the wall?

I think that certain clubs are run in a more business-like manner than others to put it another way. Even Abramovich has said that he wants Chelsea to become self-sufficient in the next few years though. If you're a billionaire and you're in the game for a buzz then you're very quickly going to get fed up of spending money if you're not winning anything. And there are only so many prizes on offer each year.

 

[Allezfan]

I'm sure that we've looked over the edge of the precipice in recent years. If we hadn't been able to sell Arteta then maybe the banks would have pulled the plug? Have you seen how many theatres, galleries and museums are going to the wall?

I think that certain clubs are run in a more business-like manner than others to put it another way. Even Abramovich has said that he wants Chelsea to become self-sufficient in the next few years though. If you're a billionaire and you're in the game for a buzz then you're very quickly going to get fed up of spending money if you're not winning anything. And there are only so many prizes on offer each year.

He said that before they went on to post record losses for the next three or four years. Talk is cheap.

And big football clubs just aren't allowed to go bust. Look at rangers or portsmouth for clubs that were incredibly incredibly badly managed and yet still exist. No other business in the world would have survived that. Look at the massive amount of debt most clubs are in. Look at the way Liverpool and Chelsea jumped from one rich buyer to another. Big clubs simply do not go out of buisness. The will isn't there.

 

[billycopper]

billycopper: "I'm by no means a supporter of Kenwright's". Lol.

Thing is mate, you can contextualise all you like but the crushing failure of the Kenwright ownership years are there for al to see -

• no success on the stadium front
• zero investment
• sale of nearly all tangible assets
• debt increased
• tied into poor commercial deals
• no silverware

What have you got to hold onto in terms of a substantial counter-argument? It appears to basically boil down to claiming for Kenwright what are, in reality, Moyes' achievements.

It's been 13 years of wasted opportunity and wasted resources....it's been an utter failure.

Finesse away, but there's no getting round that. Only a contrarian would argue the opposite viewpoint.

I don't think I'm taking the opposite viewpoint to you. I think that you're far right about it and I'm centre ground. I'm not apologising for Kenwright or saying that you've got him all wrong. I'm trying to take a more balanced viewpoint and to consider the possibility that Bill might have done a reasonable job and contributed to an overall improvement since he took over.

 

[billycopper]

He said that before they went on to post record losses for the next three or four years. Talk is cheap.

And big football clubs just aren't allowed to go bust. Look at rangers or portsmouth for clubs that were incredibly incredibly badly managed and yet still exist. No other business in the world would have survived that. Look at the massive amount of debt most clubs are in. Look at the way Liverpool and Chelsea jumped from one rich buyer to another. Big clubs simply do not go out of buisness. The will isn't there.

I think them winning the Champions League reinvigorated him and he decided for another spending push before financial fair play comes in. Before that they were trying to balance it out more though with signings like Turnbull, Sidwell, Sturridge and Benayoun.

There's a first time for everything and I wouldn't want us to run the risk of being the first Premier League club to go out of business. Hopefully some of the sides who have built up massive debts will get to a point where they have to 'settle their tabs' and find themselves in financial crisis, whilst we carry on quietly doing what we do best.

 

[Elong]

I think them winning the Champions League reinvigorated him and he decided for another spending push before financial fair play comes in. Before that they were trying to balance it out more though with signings like Turnbull, Sidwell, Sturridge and Benayoun.

There's a first time for everything and I wouldn't want us to run the risk of being the first Premier League club to go out of business. Hopefully some of the sides who have built up massive debts will get to a point where they have to 'settle their tabs' and find themselves in financial crisis, whilst we carry on quietly doing what we do best.

If we continue to be run as we are we still run a very high risk of being that team. The figures get worse as each season goes by.

 

[Slavan]

1) Stadium. I'm sure that it's an absolute mission and I wouldn't want to be the person trying to make it happen.
2) Investment. We don't know the ins and outs. Have people come forward who would be interested in putting money into the club but Kenwright has rejected it because he doesn't want his shareholding diluting? Are we uninvestible? Who knows.
3) Assets. How do you mean? Our assets are on the pitch: Fellaini, Baines, Jagielka, Mirallas, Jelavic...
4) Debts. We need a larger stadium to increase revenue so that we don't keep running at a loss. We can't build a stadium without outside investment. There is a global recession.
5) Deals. See the post about shirt sponsorship.
6) Silverware. As I've said before the cups are a lottery and we've got no chance of the league or europe.

I don't think you understand how difficult running a business is. The fact that it's a football club and that your customers feel like your business belongs to them makes things even harder. We've probably done very well just to stay afloat never mind to have a team capable of challenging with Spurs and Arsenal, so to complain that it's been an "utter failure" seriously misses the point.

are you for real?

 

[Moomin]

Come on people, how many other owners/chairman are in there clubs hall of fame like Bill "biggest blue in the universe" Kenwright.

Plus he also won the prestigious " Howard Kendall award "

We will miss him apparently, when he goes.

 

[davek]

1) Stadium. I'm sure that it's an absolute mission and I wouldn't want to be the person trying to make it happen.
2) Investment. We don't know the ins and outs. Have people come forward who would be interested in putting money into the club but Kenwright has rejected it because he doesn't want his shareholding diluting? Are we uninvestible? Who knows.
3) Assets. How do you mean? Our assets are on the pitch: Fellaini, Baines, Jagielka, Mirallas, Jelavic...
4) Debts. We need a larger stadium to increase revenue so that we don't keep running at a loss. We can't build a stadium without outside investment. There is a global recession.
5) Deals. See the post about shirt sponsorship.
6) Silverware. As I've said before the cups are a lottery and we've got no chance of the league or europe.

I don't think you understand how difficult running a business is. The fact that it's a football club and that your customers feel like your business belongs to them makes things even harder. We've probably done very well just to stay afloat never mind to have a team capable of challenging with Spurs and Arsenal, so to complain that it's been an "utter failure" seriously misses the point.

^^^^ "Yes there's been failure, but Bill shouldn't have to take full responsibility...we have to place it into context. If we only appreciated that the City of Liverpool has only room for one football club, that the world-wide recession targeted Everton in particular and rolled over us like a tsunami, and that despite all this Bill's still been able to inspire top half of the table finishes. In fact, what am I talking about...Bill's been a success, not a failure."


As I said: contrarian.

 

[harry]

Neville will be 5 years older and still first choice.

My heart sank because i know this is true.