NHL

[SerenityNigh]

And why are they Stanley Cup contenders? Because if great drafting and team management or because of the massive advantage they get form being no tax states?

I mean Marchand and these polled NHL players seem to be fairly clear about it.

They also have good weather (most of them). If Bettman were any kind of leader there would be a sunny-day tax levied on all clubs with more than average sunny days. This can be redistributed to teams with colder winters.

Similarly, there could be a shiny tax*--all New York, Los Angeles, and Las Vegas teams are taxed because these are shiny cities filled with fun and fun-adjacent things.

*Toronto is obviously exempt from this, there can't be any league proposals with negative implications, real or implied, against the Maple Leaves.

 

[Efcjake]

They also have good weather (most of them). If Bettman were any kind of leader there would be a sunny-day tax levied on all clubs with more than average sunny days. This can be redistributed to teams with colder winters.

Similarly, there could be a shiny tax*--all New York, Los Angeles, and Las Vegas teams are taxed because these are shiny cities filled with fun and fun-adjacent things.

*Toronto is obviously exempt from this, there can't be any league proposals with negative implications, real or implied, against the Maple Leaves.

Let's just keep pretending there's not a massive advantage to those teams because of the tax situation and keep talking about the weather.

Give me a break brother.

 

[SerenityNigh]

Let's just keep pretending there's not a massive advantage to those teams because of the tax situation and keep talking about the weather.

Give me a break brother.

There's absolutely an advantage, but it's overstated and it's not the only advantage any of the teams have. But I think it's absolutely acceptable if * gets engraved on the Cup so long as it reads Dallas Stars, 2025-2026*

 

[Efcjake]

There's absolutely an advantage, but it's overstated and it's not the only advantage any of the teams have. But I think it's absolutely acceptable if * gets engraved on the Cup so long as it reads Dallas Stars, 2025-2026*

At least we're done pretending it's not an advantage now. Bettman needs to do something about it.

There's no point in having a cap to try to make things equal if nobody is actually equal.

The easy fix is to set the cap at net pay and erase this advantage once and for all.

 

[SerenityNigh]

The easy fix is to set the cap at net pay and erase this advantage once and for all.

I know you're not going to agree with me, but that's a bad idea for lots of obvious reasons

 

[Efcjake]

I know you're not going to agree with me, but that's a bad idea for lots of obvious reasons

What are the obvious reasons?

As far as I can tell it's a quick fix to put all of the teams on the level playing field they're supposed to be on.

 

[SerenityNigh]

What are the obvious reasons?

Some obvious reasons, beginning with those leaning more towards net pay and ending more towards quality of life

1. You're equating taxes with the entirety of cost of living, ignoring other important factors; it's tedious to list them all here (housing, healthcare, property tax*, etc)
2. You're ignoring other income through endorsements; the best teams for endorsements are going to be in high tax cities & states/provinces. Sure, McDavid could make more signing in Florida without paying as much income tax, but he'd make far more in Toronto or New York through his endorsements. (And he's probably a bad example because he's got a brand that carries in so many markets; very few in the NHL have any real cachet, especially in the US; it's only Canadian stars in big Canadian cities that pull the biggest endorsements).
3. You're ignoring other lifestyle choices; granted most of these have greater relevance to older players with families, but also most of the players (like Marchand) who have this flexibility are older; this is not the same as Kaprizov holding out for an insane AAV (that's next). But apart from the pleasantries (ie, the weather is nice), the actual cost of living varies greatly from city to city.
4. Lifestyle choices continue to non-monetary (or indirect) factors: NYC is more exciting than Dallas, unless you first laced your skates on a West Texas ranch. Some cities have better weather, as previously discussed.
5. You're ignoring team build/having a well-run organization/signing with a team that has "a chance to win." It's objectively obvious that most NHL players would like to play on a team with Kaprizov. But if he's going to demand $16MM+ AAV, there are a lot of level headed players who would rather play with a similarly talented $12MM AAV star and an/other player/s that is/are $4MM AAV better. This is essentially your argument for salary cap restructuring, but you can't have it both ways.
6. Still, ~40% of the league is Canadian players and only 7 teams are in Canada (despite the fact that I always forget 1 and can never name more than 6). Living near home/family/where you grew up is a strong factor for a lot of players.

*=Most states with no income tax have extremely high property tax rates, and many NHL players enjoy a high standard of living

As far as I can tell it's a quick fix to put all of the teams on the level playing field they're supposed to be on.

It's only a quick fix if you think the math is simple. I don't think the math is simple, only the conversation that happens on this issue. If you want to fix this, give teams power to make the choices they want by removing the most severe restrictions of the cap. You want to fix the league, help the Flames get out of Huberdeau's contract. You want to talk about the advantage Dallas has with no income tax? Don't ignore the disadvantage they've had carrying $18MM+ on Seguin and Benn for the last few years. There is no one-size-fits all solution unless you wear blinders.

Is the income tax issue an issue? Absolutely. Is it the biggest issue or even a major issue? Absolutely not, it's just tiresome.

 

[Nicodemus49]

Some obvious reasons, beginning with those leaning more towards net pay and ending more towards quality of life

1. You're equating taxes with the entirety of cost of living, ignoring other important factors; it's tedious to list them all here (housing, healthcare, property tax*, etc)
2. You're ignoring other income through endorsements; the best teams for endorsements are going to be in high tax cities & states/provinces. Sure, McDavid could make more signing in Florida without paying as much income tax, but he'd make far more in Toronto or New York through his endorsements. (And he's probably a bad example because he's got a brand that carries in so many markets; very few in the NHL have any real cachet, especially in the US; it's only Canadian stars in big Canadian cities that pull the biggest endorsements).
3. You're ignoring other lifestyle choices; granted most of these have greater relevance to older players with families, but also most of the players (like Marchand) who have this flexibility are older; this is not the same as Kaprizov holding out for an insane AAV (that's next). But apart from the pleasantries (ie, the weather is nice), the actual cost of living varies greatly from city to city.
4. Lifestyle choices continue to non-monetary (or indirect) factors: NYC is more exciting than Dallas, unless you first laced your skates on a West Texas ranch. Some cities have better weather, as previously discussed.
5. You're ignoring team build/having a well-run organization/signing with a team that has "a chance to win." It's objectively obvious that most NHL players would like to play on a team with Kaprizov. But if he's going to demand $16MM+ AAV, there are a lot of level headed players who would rather play with a similarly talented $12MM AAV star and an/other player/s that is/are $4MM AAV better. This is essentially your argument for salary cap restructuring, but you can't have it both ways.
6. Still, ~40% of the league is Canadian players and only 7 teams are in Canada (despite the fact that I always forget 1 and can never name more than 6). Living near home/family/where you grew up is a strong factor for a lot of players.

*=Most states with no income tax have extremely high property tax rates, and many NHL players enjoy a high standard of living



It's only a quick fix if you think the math is simple. I don't think the math is simple, only the conversation that happens on this issue. If you want to fix this, give teams power to make the choices they want by removing the most severe restrictions of the cap. You want to fix the league, help the Flames get out of Huberdeau's contract. You want to talk about the advantage Dallas has with no income tax? Don't ignore the disadvantage they've had carrying $18MM+ on Seguin and Benn for the last few years. There is no one-size-fits all solution unless you wear blinders.

Is the income tax issue an issue? Absolutely. Is it the biggest issue or even a major issue? Absolutely not, it's just tiresome.

Some obvious reasons, beginning with those leaning more towards net pay and ending more towards quality of life

1. You're equating taxes with the entirety of cost of living, ignoring other important factors; it's tedious to list them all here (housing, healthcare, property tax*, etc)
2. You're ignoring other income through endorsements; the best teams for endorsements are going to be in high tax cities & states/provinces. Sure, McDavid could make more signing in Florida without paying as much income tax, but he'd make far more in Toronto or New York through his endorsements. (And he's probably a bad example because he's got a brand that carries in so many markets; very few in the NHL have any real cachet, especially in the US; it's only Canadian stars in big Canadian cities that pull the biggest endorsements).
3. You're ignoring other lifestyle choices; granted most of these have greater relevance to older players with families, but also most of the players (like Marchand) who have this flexibility are older; this is not the same as Kaprizov holding out for an insane AAV (that's next). But apart from the pleasantries (ie, the weather is nice), the actual cost of living varies greatly from city to city.
4. Lifestyle choices continue to non-monetary (or indirect) factors: NYC is more exciting than Dallas, unless you first laced your skates on a West Texas ranch. Some cities have better weather, as previously discussed.
5. You're ignoring team build/having a well-run organization/signing with a team that has "a chance to win." It's objectively obvious that most NHL players would like to play on a team with Kaprizov. But if he's going to demand $16MM+ AAV, there are a lot of level headed players who would rather play with a similarly talented $12MM AAV star and an/other player/s that is/are $4MM AAV better. This is essentially your argument for salary cap restructuring, but you can't have it both ways.
6. Still, ~40% of the league is Canadian players and only 7 teams are in Canada (despite the fact that I always forget 1 and can never name more than 6). Living near home/family/where you grew up is a strong factor for a lot of players.

*=Most states with no income tax have extremely high property tax rates, and many NHL players enjoy a high standard of living



It's only a quick fix if you think the math is simple. I don't think the math is simple, only the conversation that happens on this issue. If you want to fix this, give teams power to make the choices they want by removing the most severe restrictions of the cap. You want to fix the league, help the Flames get out of Huberdeau's contract. You want to talk about the advantage Dallas has with no income tax? Don't ignore the disadvantage they've had carrying $18MM+ on Seguin and Benn for the last few years. There is no one-size-fits all solution unless you wear blinders.

Is the income tax issue an issue? Absolutely. Is it the biggest issue or even a major issue? Absolutely not, it's just tiresome.

This is an exceptional post.....thank you !!

Interesting comment on the lifestyle choice particularly given many players live elsewhere in the off-season.

Going to be a good season. Oilers need to figure out the goaltending as well as the McDavid contract. I have no doubts the latter will get done though not so sure about the former. Think the window for the Stars is closing and the strategy to go big or go home with Rantanen may have back-fired. Again fuel to the old adage don't get pulled into goaltending switcheroos when the chips are down.

 

[Efcjake]

Some obvious reasons, beginning with those leaning more towards net pay and ending more towards quality of life

1. You're equating taxes with the entirety of cost of living, ignoring other important factors; it's tedious to list them all here (housing, healthcare, property tax*, etc)
2. You're ignoring other income through endorsements; the best teams for endorsements are going to be in high tax cities & states/provinces. Sure, McDavid could make more signing in Florida without paying as much income tax, but he'd make far more in Toronto or New York through his endorsements. (And he's probably a bad example because he's got a brand that carries in so many markets; very few in the NHL have any real cachet, especially in the US; it's only Canadian stars in big Canadian cities that pull the biggest endorsements).
3. You're ignoring other lifestyle choices; granted most of these have greater relevance to older players with families, but also most of the players (like Marchand) who have this flexibility are older; this is not the same as Kaprizov holding out for an insane AAV (that's next). But apart from the pleasantries (ie, the weather is nice), the actual cost of living varies greatly from city to city.
4. Lifestyle choices continue to non-monetary (or indirect) factors: NYC is more exciting than Dallas, unless you first laced your skates on a West Texas ranch. Some cities have better weather, as previously discussed.
5. You're ignoring team build/having a well-run organization/signing with a team that has "a chance to win." It's objectively obvious that most NHL players would like to play on a team with Kaprizov. But if he's going to demand $16MM+ AAV, there are a lot of level headed players who would rather play with a similarly talented $12MM AAV star and an/other player/s that is/are $4MM AAV better. This is essentially your argument for salary cap restructuring, but you can't have it both ways.
6. Still, ~40% of the league is Canadian players and only 7 teams are in Canada (despite the fact that I always forget 1 and can never name more than 6). Living near home/family/where you grew up is a strong factor for a lot of players.

*=Most states with no income tax have extremely high property tax rates, and many NHL players enjoy a high standard of living



It's only a quick fix if you think the math is simple. I don't think the math is simple, only the conversation that happens on this issue. If you want to fix this, give teams power to make the choices they want by removing the most severe restrictions of the cap. You want to fix the league, help the Flames get out of Huberdeau's contract. You want to talk about the advantage Dallas has with no income tax? Don't ignore the disadvantage they've had carrying $18MM+ on Seguin and Benn for the last few years. There is no one-size-fits all solution unless you wear blinders.

Is the income tax issue an issue? Absolutely. Is it the biggest issue or even a major issue? Absolutely not, it's just tiresome.

There are some good points here. I'm specifically talking about the massive advantage the disparity in tax rates is causing. A net pay cap would create the equality the salary cap is meant to achieve.

A salary cap doesn't affect any of these non financial factors, they're irrelevant to this discussion.

1. I'm talking only about what the salary cap is meant to ensure. That teams are only able to pay the same amount as any other team. A net pay cap would accomplish that.
2. Endorsements aren't coming from league pay.
3. Can't do anything about the lifestyle choices and this has nothing to do with the Pay issue caused by tax break states. At least there would be a financial level playing field which, again, is supposed to be the entire point of the salary cap.
4. Again lifestyle choices have nothing to do with the financial imbalance caused by the tax issue.
5. I'm not ignoring it. I'm stating that the tax issue is giving them a massive advantage. There is no chicken and the egg argument to be made, the teams have a huge advantage in free agency and contract renewals. Marchand just flat out said it. The polls from the players themselves indicate this.
6. Living near home is great. Making 30-40% more income over the course of your short hockey career by moving to a tax reduced state is probably a bigger factor.

If we want to go down this road of pretending it hasn't created a massively unfair playing field we should do away with the cap and let the Canadian teams blow you out of the water with their spending. Nobody would want to play in Dallas or Nashville, regardless of the weather, if we got to spend the money we actually generate.

But that wouldn't be fair to the small market teams would it? Just like this tax imbalance isn't fair either.

 

[SerenityNigh]

Going to be a good season. Oilers need to figure out the goaltending as well as the McDavid contract. I have no doubts the latter will get done though not so sure about the former. Think the window for the Stars is closing and the strategy to go big or go home with Rantanen may have back-fired. Again fuel to the old adage don't get pulled into goaltending switcheroos when the chips are down.

Speaking on the Stars (which I know more about than most of the league), they've done very well bringing in players (draft, FA, trades) and I don't think the window is closing yet, but they've got a few issues to sort out.

First, what does this team look like centered around Rantanen? It can look really good, but we haven't really seen that yet.
What happens to the contracts of Harley and Robertson? Harley is above Robertson in priority, but Nill would like to keep both it seems. But if Robertson is getting $12M, he's not getting this in Dallas.
Can they figure out RHD? This team could easily roll out 4 LHD as the top 2 defensive lines.
Wyatt Johnston has to turn into the superstar he's flashed at times.
And Lian Bischel needs to show he can do more than lay down a big hit (but let's keep seeing those)

Will be interesting to see how they look early. I like a lot of the roster filling signings--I'm really happy for Faksa to be back--but still need one or 2 of the kids (Bischel, Mavrik Bourque, maybe even Lundkvist) to step up and show they can play at this level.

 

[Efcjake]

This is an exceptional post.....thank you !!

Interesting comment on the lifestyle choice particularly given many players live elsewhere in the off-season.

Going to be a good season. Oilers need to figure out the goaltending as well as the McDavid contract. I have no doubts the latter will get done though not so sure about the former. Think the window for the Stars is closing and the strategy to go big or go home with Rantanen may have back-fired. Again fuel to the old adage don't get pulled into goaltending switcheroos when the chips are down.

Going to show it's completely irrelevant.

They'd take the money they can get and then they're disappearing to where they actually want to live.

 

[mmmmsnouts]

I think Dallas was forced to sort of punt on this season because they had to fire DeBoer in June and appoint basically a caretaker coach. I’d be really surprised if Gulutzan is still there in 12 months, he’s just not very good.

 

[Nicodemus49]

Speaking on the Stars (which I know more about than most of the league), they've done very well bringing in players (draft, FA, trades) and I don't think the window is closing yet, but they've got a few issues to sort out.

First, what does this team look like centered around Rantanen? It can look really good, but we haven't really seen that yet.
What happens to the contracts of Harley and Robertson? Harley is above Robertson in priority, but Nill would like to keep both it seems. But if Robertson is getting $12M, he's not getting this in Dallas.
Can they figure out RHD? This team could easily roll out 4 LHD as the top 2 defensive lines.
Wyatt Johnston has to turn into the superstar he's flashed at times.
And Lian Bischel needs to show he can do more than lay down a big hit (but let's keep seeing those)

Will be interesting to see how they look early. I like a lot of the roster filling signings--I'm really happy for Faksa to be back--but still need one or 2 of the kids (Bischel, Mavrik Bourque, maybe even Lundkvist) to step up and show they can play at this level.

Great insight. I live in California and am a Blackhawks fan (yeah the road is long right now), but one of my kids is a huge Stars fan.....i honestly thought they would ride the wave last year as for a couple of games early in the play-offs it seemed to click and Rantanen got hot, but just like that it kind of fizzled out. Florida to some extent bullied them in the final. I guess we'll see. I hope it works out for Otter there as think he's a top tier netminder but the spotlight turns on the goalie even when there are deficiencies in front of him. De Boer seems to have a sell-by date wherever he goes, and clearly time had run out in Dallas though don't know if some of his thinking in the finals was overly smart....

 

[SerenityNigh]

Without quibbling facts, my two issues with these ideas:

6. Living near home is great. Making 30-40% more income over the course of your short hockey career by moving to a tax reduced state is probably a bigger factor.

Nobody is paying or saving 30-40% in state income tax. I don't offer tax advice or legal opinions, but it seems that for high earners (the people we are talking about) you'd see effective income tax rates (before accounting wizardry) in these ranges:

Montreal: 58% (33% Canada, 25% Quebec)
Vancouver 53% (33% Canada, 20% BC)
Los Angeles: 50% (37% USA, 13% CA)
Calgary: 48% (33% Canada, 15% Alberta)
New York: 48% (37% USA, 11% NY)
Massachussets: 46% (37%, 9% MA)
Florida, Texas: 37% (37% USA, 0% state)

A salary cap doesn't affect any of these non financial factors, they're irrelevant to this discussion.

But they're not irrelevant; just because they aren't as easy to measure doesn't mean they're irrelevant. And just because Marchand talks about the impact of this (when has he ever not talked?) doesn't mean every player feels the same. My most basic argument is that the state-income tax discussion puts too much emphasis on a small matter that carries a lot less impact than people suggest.

 

[SerenityNigh]

I think Dallas was forced to sort of punt on this season because they had to fire DeBoer in June and appoint basically a caretaker coach. I’d be really surprised if Gulutzan is still there in 12 months, he’s just not very good.

I want to hear more about this. Who did Nill want that's not available if he's just using Gulutzan as a temporary filler?