Wisconsin union fightback

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Michael Moore is to the left what Palin is to the right. Wouldn't touch either of them with a biiig pole. Before suggesting UK unions follow suit however it's worth remembering that the Wisconsin unions accept the need to trim pay, what they're petitioning against is attempts to restrict collective bargaining.
 
Michael Moore is to the left what Palin is to the right. Wouldn't touch either of them with a biiig pole. Before suggesting UK unions follow suit however it's worth remembering that the Wisconsin unions accept the need to trim pay, what they're petitioning against is attempts to restrict collective bargaining.

Our public sector unions have accepted wage freezes too. The showdown here will be over compulsory redundancies (the call has gone out for voluntary redundancies at the minute, but that wont satisfy the Tories).
 
moore is not my cup of tea but i'm with him 100% on this. right wing think tanks recently stated again they want union powers curbed and no unions at all for certain workers in the uk. after the thatcher attack on the collective power of working people we must never let insidious management curb union powers at all, they would gladly have you on your knees.
 
moore is not my cup of tea but i'm with him 100% on this. right wing think tanks recently stated again they want union powers curbed and no unions at all for certain workers in the uk. after the thatcher attack on the collective power of working people we must never let insidious management curb union powers at all, they would gladly have you on your knees.

The thing is, union membership these days is almost exclusively public sector. Only 15% or so private sector employees belong to a union. So to call it an attack on working people is simply not true as it doesn't effect most working people at all. The following document might be of interest as well. It compares the number of days lost to strikes in the public and private sector. Broadly speaking there 15 times as many days lost to strikes in the public sector compared to the private (that is strike days per worker - obviously when you account for the different levels of membership the volume is significantly higher amongst public sector folks).

And they have the gall to call themselves public servants. Buggered if they're not.
 
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every worker has the right to withdrawl their labour, and a lot of private sector industries do not recognise or allow unions, thinking of retail here (some union activity but it is very weak and membership can block promotion - off the record of course) and as a result workers are exploited. the more the erosion of union rights continues the more bad management types are free to do what they want - a green light to abuse so to speak.

as for the dig at public servants i do not agree at all.
 
The thing is, they distort the basic rule that the customer is the most important person in any commercial relationship. It's not the employee and never should be. This notion that folks are exploited I can't fathom in a free society in which people enter employment of their own volition.
 
Bruce is NOT a Tory.

I repeat: Bruce is NOT a Tory.


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Got my letter this week that they are looking for voluntary redundancies and if not enough take them up there will be compulsory redundancies to follow.
 
Bruce is NOT a Tory.

I repeat: Bruce is NOT a Tory.


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There are plenty of their policies that I think are wrong Dave. Immigration is one very obvious example. Their opinion on things like marriage is another. I know libertarian philosophies don't fit nicely into the traditional two dimensional world of British politics but that's what I am. Socially I've always been liberal, just as I've always been a free market man economically. It's a wee bit outdated to believe you can only be right wing on both axis or left wing on both axis.

So yes in terms of economics I will probably align with the Tories on many things, but socially there are many things I don't agree with, hence why they didn't get my vote.
 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-12658349

Fascinating watching this unfold in the past couple of weeks or so. Hats off to them. They're making a great stand there against the draconian Republican proposals to balance the state budget. I hope our public sector unions are taking notes.

If you lived in this country you'd know that in Obama's America the civil servants like the police, fire and teachers or for all intensive purposes any middle class job are f---ed. I feel for them. After all they are forced to put their livelihood in the hands of the world's biggest cowards, elected Democrats. It doesn't matter that the majority of citizens in Wiscy support the protestors. What's going to happen is that (and the repubs know this) the Dems will cave and give Walker every thing he wants minus one insignificant issue. Then the Dems will all get together and pat themselves on the back for a job well done for STANDING UP AGAINST THE POWERFUL CORPORATE INTERESTS!!! The protestors will soon find that they've all wasted their time.
 
I would never presume to say person X is a insert party here voter but Bruce your views on most subjects do come across as very right wing,as i'm sure mine come across as left wing.
 
I would never presume to say person X is a insert party here voter but Bruce your views on most subjects do come across as very right wing,as i'm sure mine come across as left wing.

That's fair enough. Probably just the kind of topics we often discuss in the ale house (ie mostly economics). Put it another way though. A tube driver (for instance) may carry many thousands of passengers during their shift. In that relationship the customer is in the clear majority, yet because of union power the minority are given undue power and influence.

Let me use another example. If for instance the trade unions wish to increase pay by £1,000 a year (just an example to make a point, I accept that may/may not be at all accurate). To each employee £1,000 a year is a whole lot so they will fight and fight to get it. To get that kind of raise each customer may see the price of their train ticket (or whatever) go up by £2. £2 for each individual is a nuisance for sure but probably not worth kicking up a stink over, and of course customers have no collective bargaining group anyway.

So the minority often get their way over the majority, even (often?) in a way that makes no rational sense.

Let me use another example to emphasise this. As we're talking America (in the OP) I'll use an American one. The teaching unions there have long opposed any attempts to introduce performance related pay, ie to pay the best teachers more than currently and the worst teachers less. I dare say most parents would be very happy to see the best teachers rewarded more, and indeed for the less able teachers to be encouraged to buck their ideas up. The teachers union there has lobbied incredibly hard to stop any such activity. And you have to understand that this is perfectly rational for them. In a collective bargaining environment you will inevitably try to get the best deal for the average employee (coz it's collective y'see?), so it inevitably harms the best employees who deserve more, and unduly benefits the worst who deserve less.

This is basic trade union self interest, and that is exactly my point. The unions exist to get the best deal for their members. They don't care about customers and they don't care about tax payers. Now of course you could argue that if they support bum employees eventually the company will go bust and everyone will lose. After all you can only squeeze the pip so long before it bursts. Here is the thing though. As mentioned earlier, private sector union membership is incredibly low (arguably for that very reason). In the public sector though the situation is different. It's unlikely for the government to go bust so the one thing that keeps a union even relatively fair and honest does not exist.

And that's why I don't support them in any way, shape or form.
 
I would never presume to say person X is a insert party here voter but Bruce your views on most subjects do come across as very right wing,as i'm sure mine come across as left wing.
I think if you read his posts you'll see that on most economic subjects you're right but with social issues he really is more liberal* than most on here.

*liberal in the original sense of the word not in any way implying any sort of assossiation with the old Liberal party or currrent Lib-Dems.

I tend to agree with Bruce on social issues and agree with you and Davek on economic issues.

As for football issues, Bruce is the man
 
There are plenty of their policies that I think are wrong Dave. Immigration is one very obvious example. Their opinion on things like marriage is another. I know libertarian philosophies don't fit nicely into the traditional two dimensional world of British politics but that's what I am. Socially I've always been liberal, just as I've always been a free market man economically. It's a wee bit outdated to believe you can only be right wing on both axis or left wing on both axis.

So yes in terms of economics I will probably align with the Tories on many things, but socially there are many things I don't agree with, hence why they didn't get my vote.

There's people who are Tory MPs who'd say the same thing. You belong in the broad church of the Conservative Party.
 

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