van Gaal

[Eric Djemba-Djemba]

Haha, as if Moyes would have done anything better this season. The guy is a loser when it comes down to it. He will never have any success at a club like United.

 

[davek]

But neither did LVG.

He has eventually ended up with the 433 he has used most of his career but he had tried virtually every other formation before settling on it including spending all preseason and a large chunk of league games playing with a back three and there have been lots of other tactical variations as well. Fair point about Moyes not having the self confidence to play the way he wanted to but LVG probably went far too far the other way trying to impose his World Cup squad formation on United.

As for the players, for large part of the season they were in different positions every week - Rooney played as a striker, out of the wing, as a number ten and as a defensive midfielder, Mata/Herrera spent a good chunk of it on the bench and ADM was even for a couple of games used as a striker!

LVG is clearly a good coach, Fellaini is not just playing the way he played under Moyes he's also improved other parts of his game and that goes for a lot of the other players as well most noticeably Ashley Young. But you are making it sound like he had a clear vision of exactly how he wanted the play and all the faffing around was just some great masterplan when the evidence suggests that he got a lucky in quite a few aspects like RVP being injured and ADM being suspended at the same time.

Yes, but you surely have to allow a few months for a manager fresh into the club to look at the players and try different formations and tactics to see if that could get the best out of them before settling into a consistent method?

The feller's record speaks for itself. How can he be seriously questioned as a top manger? He's an annoying man and has an ego the size of a planet, but so what?

 

[LinekersLegs]

Yes, but you surely have to allow a few months for a manager fresh into the club to look at the players and try different formations and tactics to see if that could get the best out of them before settling into a consistent method?

The feller's record speaks for itself. How can he be seriously questioned as a top manger? He's an annoying man and has an ego the size of a planet, but so what?

Yes, but that wasn't how you appeared to be portraying it initially with your statement "stick with a team and way of playing".

Given they had no European football and were knocked out the league cup early it took him a surprisingly long time to settle on the current setup given his reputation. He seems to have little preknowledge of his squad and his apparent lack of input into their summer signings was also unusual even given his World Cup involvement.

United were fortunate that De Gea was in such fine form or the pressure could really have mounted on LVG given it was truly dire football to watch at times and there appeared little strategy behind the tinkering after he had eventually abandoned the 3 at the back that didn't work.

 

[davek]

Yes, but that wasn't how you appeared to be portraying it initially with your statement "stick with a team and way of playing".

Given they had no European football and were knocked out the league cup early it took him a surprisingly long time to settle on the current setup given his reputation. He seems to have little preknowledge of his squad and his apparent lack of input into their summer signings was also unusual even given his World Cup involvement.

United were fortunate that De Gea was in such fine form or the pressure could really have mounted on LVG given it was truly dire football to watch at times and there appeared little strategy behind the tinkering after he had eventually abandoned the 3 at the back that didn't work.

But 'way of playing' shouldn't be simply read as a formation (he's not just relied on 433 all his career), it's more to do with style or outlook: attack minded rather than defensive; pressing and with pace. Even when United were ponderous and knocking it short early in the season Van Gaal was acknowledging it wasn't attack minded enough and asked for a bit of patience while he worked through the possible permutations of playing. The feller had to take small steps in order to then move forward with his vision more rapidly toward the end of this season.

 

[LinekersLegs]

But 'way of playing' shouldn't be simply read as a formation (he's not just relied on 433 all his career), it's more to do with style or outlook: attack minded rather than defensive; pressing and with pace. Even when United were ponderous and knocking it short early in the season Van Gaal was acknowledging it wasn't attack minded enough and asked for a bit of patience while he worked through the possible permutations of playing. The feller had to take small steps in order to then move forward with his vision more rapidly toward the end of this season.

So "stick with a team and way of playing" has nothing to do with the actual players used or any consistency in how they line up but is just a broad brush philosophy of attack minded with general pressing and pace?

lol You are a master at reframing an argument, no way can I keep up with your footwork!

 

[Deco]

Yes, but that wasn't how you appeared to be portraying it initially with your statement "stick with a team and way of playing".

Given they had no European football and were knocked out the league cup early it took him a surprisingly long time to settle on the current setup given his reputation. He seems to have little preknowledge of his squad and his apparent lack of input into their summer signings was also unusual even given his World Cup involvement.

United were fortunate that De Gea was in such fine form or the pressure could really have mounted on LVG given it was truly dire football to watch at times and there appeared little strategy behind the tinkering after he had eventually abandoned the 3 at the back that didn't work.

Good points, but it's hard to judge a manager on ifs and buts (with De Gea's form, if it wasn't so good when United weren't playing as well). Van Gaal has quickly put together a team who are above Man City.

But 'way of playing' shouldn't be simply read as a formation (he's not just relied on 433 all his career), it's more to do with style or outlook: attack minded rather than defensive; pressing and with pace. Even when United were ponderous and knocking it short early in the season Van Gaal was acknowledging it wasn't attack minded enough and asked for a bit of patience while he worked through the possible permutations of playing. The feller had to take small steps in order to then move forward with his vision more rapidly toward the end of this season.

I agree, in the time that it's taken he's done quite well although if he hadn't have improved on the form of earlier in the season, their fans would have been frustrated given the spending.

 

[davek]

So "stick with a team and way of playing" has nothing to do with the actual players used or any consistency in how they line up but is just a broad brush philosophy of attack minded with general pressing and pace?

lol You are a master at reframing an argument, no way can I keep up with your footwork!

I'm not "reframing" it because I never framed it in a particular way in the first place...as you yourself accepted when you wrote a few pots back that I appeared or seemed to be suggesting a formation.

You can't have it both ways.

 

[LinekersLegs]

I'm not "reframing" it because I never framed it in a particular way in the first place...as you yourself accepted when you wrote a few pots back that I appeared or seemed to be suggesting a formation.

You can't have it both ways.

So stick with a team doesn't reference the players used?

 

[davek]

So stick with a team doesn't reference the players used?

Fair enough, he's not stuck by a core of players, sloppy language....though I did concede a few posts that he'd been having to search through his squad looking to find the right players for a workable system.

 

[LinekersLegs]

Fair enough, he's not stuck by a core of players, sloppy language....though I did concede a few posts that he'd been having to search through his squad looking to find the right players for a workable system.

Moving on from the semantics debate does the time it has taken him to settle on this way of playing (however you define it ) not surprise you a bit?

The first match his gameplan truly became clear was Spurs - game 29 in mid March and even in January there was little sign of it as he was still trying weird stuff like ADM as a striker. Irrc he also started very slowly at Bayern with several months of turmoil before it all clicking.

Surely not many other managers would get the luxury of so much freedom especially with such a talented squad and extensive transfer spending - they'd be sacked before their ideas had been fully implemented.

 

[davek]

Moving on from the semantics debate does the time it has taken him to settle on this way of playing (however you define it ) not surprise you a bit?

The first match his gameplan truly became clear was Spurs - game 29 in mid March and even in January there was little sign of it as he was still trying weird stuff like ADM as a striker. Irrc he also started very slowly at Bayern with several months of turmoil before it all clicking.

Surely not many other managers would get the luxury of so much freedom especially with such a talented squad and extensive transfer spending - they'd be sacked before their ideas had been fully implemented.

But he was racking up the points and staying in touch with the top four, so he wasn't getting any slack because of his cv.

When he did get a settled system and formation they accelerated into the top four.

I'm not sure why you want to detract from his achievement. 3rd place with 5 games to go after the almighty mess that ginger divvy left to clear up last season. Seems a clear cut case of a manager getting the job done to me.

 

[LinekersLegs]

But he was racking up the points and staying in touch with the top four, so he wasn't getting any slack because of his cv.

When he did get a settled system and formation they accelerated into the top four.

I'm not sure why you want to detract from his achievement. 3rd place with 5 games to go after the almighty mess that ginger divvy left to clear up last season. Seems a clear cut case of a manager getting the job done to me.

Probably because that was what I felt he should be doing given he has the more expensive/best paid squad in the league and the pretty easy schedule he has had. With his reputation I was hoping for slightly more tbh, at least getting a bit further in a cup for example.

In comparison his fellow Dutchman Koeman got his gutted team playing well much quicker and only now is faltering due to squad depth and loss of form of foreign players.

 

[davek]

Probably because that was what I felt he should be doing given he has the more expensive/best paid squad in the league and the pretty easy schedule he has had. With his reputation I was hoping for slightly more tbh, at least getting a bit further in a cup for example.

In comparison his fellow Dutchman Koeman got his gutted team playing well much quicker and only now is faltering due to squad depth and loss of form of foreign players.

Going into a club like United has more pressure than stepping into S'ton. And let's not forget that Van Gaal has United 3rd and Koeman has S'ton 7th.

I dont see what spending big initially gets you though - spend over a £100M and if you do things right first season you can get a good league finish...which is what he's done. There's no way you can go from 7th to winning the league. And the cup failures are wholly excusable because the league points are the priority.

No, I think it's churlish to suggest Van Gaal has done anything less than a very good job there at United. An enormous job to step into and he's stamped his authority already.

 

[LinekersLegs]

Going into a club like United has more pressure than stepping into S'ton. And let's not forget that Van Gaal has United 3rd and Koeman has S'ton 7th.

I dont see what spending big initially gets you though - spend over a £100M and if you do things right first season you can get a good league finish...which is what he's done. There's no way you can go from 7th to winning the league. And the cup failures are wholly excusable because the league points are the priority.

No, I think it's churlish to suggest Van Gaal has done anything less than a very good job there at United. An enormous job to step into and he's stamped his authority already.

Agree there is more pressure in taking over Man Utd but he's managed Barcelona and Bayern Munich - he was hired because he should (and generally has) be able to cope with the pressure and deliver results.

Also agree it was unlikely that he would take them from 7th to 1st in his first season. However along with the pressures of taking over a team like United there are benefits such as still having quite a few of the players and support organisation that won the league in 2012/2013 and talented additions such as Mata and Fellaini.

The brief he was given when hired was to get at least automatic qualification into the Champions League and it looks like he'll do that - unless Man City suddenly find their form. But good as that achievement unless he overtakes Arsenal he hasn't over achieved - call it a solid B after a shaky start.

You seem to be taking criticism of him very personally using words like churlish, surely we can just have different views on his performance to date based upon different expectations?