sums

[Reidy's Bottle Of Grecian]

If any of you have Primary School aged kids you will no doubt have at some point had to help them with their maths homework, and at some point will have said wtf is this about, doubling, number bonds etc.
You will have also been told that you are doing it all wrong etc etc and when trying to explain (the way that we learned it all) will have been met with vacant looks.

Well guess what, when they go to High School they will then be taught to do it the 'arl fashioned way, so what exactly is the point of teaching them a different way in the 1st place ?

I'm of the opinion that we were all further ahead with mathematics in the 'arl days than the kids of today, my daughter isn't a top set kid but is by no means thick, and asking around the other parents seem to think the same.

IMO times-tables are the key to mathS, & the repetitive chanting of them that we used to do ingrains them so much in your mind that the answers become instant, which then helps with all kinds of mental arithmetic.

So get back to the tried and trusted methods and sack all this new fangled malarky that for me has been a waste of part of her primary education.
There was absolutely no point in doing it at all if when at high school a different method is used.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

IMO times-tables are the key to math

For me the key is grasping the point of it all. I'm sure it comes easily to some, but for many maths is something that will require a fair bit of work. Much of it is pretty abstract and if it's not clear how what you're grappling with could be useful for you then finding the motivation would be pretty tough I should think.

 

[Woolly Blue]

If any of you have Primary School aged kids you will no doubt have at some point had to help them with their maths homework, and at some point will have said wtf is this about, doubling, number bonds etc.
You will have also been told that you are doing it all wrong etc etc and when trying to explain (the way that we learned it all) will have been met with vacant looks.

Got some sympathy with you on this mate. The number bonds and doubling things had me scratching my head at first, but I can kind of see where it's coming from. It basically works in the opposite way to rote learning and tries to build an understanding of why 2+5 is 7 , as is 1 +6 etc. You're right though, the change in methods in High School is too abrupt and just confuses them. There should be a more gradual change in teaching methods in the last few years of primary school.

 

[Reidy's Bottle Of Grecian]

Got some sympathy with you on this mate. The number bonds and doubling things had me scratching my head at first, but I can kind of see where it's coming from. It basically works in the opposite way to rote learning and tries to build an understanding of why 2+5 is 7 , as is 1 +6 etc. You're right though, the change in methods in High School is too abrupt and just confuses them. There should be a more gradual change in teaching methods in the last few years of primary school.

just teaching them the same way throughout their schooling solves it.

I agree with what you say about maths Bruce to an extent, something clicks with it and when it does everything becomes apparent and obvious, but until then they stay confused by it all. I got my daughter into an extra maths class, and after 2 of the lessons it clicked and she breezed through the course, from really struggling tbh, now if that is all that's required for kids to advance it should be made available to all. As it was there were limited places, same faces got in as get all the parts in the school plays etc i.e. those with parents that do stuff at the school, we only got her on it half way through because a friend was moving house and told us to ask for any place that came up just before she informed them that she was flitting.

 

[Reidy's Bottle Of Grecian]

probably more appropriate to this thread really...

here's what the schools are concerned with.... LEAGUE TABLES.

the ones that appear to be ahead at age 6, are given extra lessons pushing them further ahead.
the ones at the 'bottom' end of the scale are given extra work to pull them up to scratch so to speak.
the ones in between are just left to carry on at the level that they are at.

the consequence of this is that those 1st kids that I mentioned just pull away from the rest, in the final primary year they go to the high school to do lessons in maths/english/science, the tag given to this 'The Gifted & Talented' (or G & T as it has become known in todays world of abbreviations) is wrong, if a kid wins a race on sports day they can't be given a prize because there can't be a winner on the basis that it means there is also a loser, so does that mean the rest are Dumb & Dumber ( D & D) ?

My point is that at such a young age there is no need to advance kids away from the rest of the class, more time should be spent bringing those lagging upto them as closely as possible. There isn't much chance of kids moving up these days as the 'cream of the crop' are advanced away by so much. Another example is with spelling, the top kids get 50% more spellings to do which in theory means they are being taught 50% more than the others.

Lets not forget that when they start, 1 kid could be 5 on the 1st day at school, yet his classmate may have only turned 4 the previous day, so obviously he is gonna in most cases need a bit more help.

I get what you say about the parents role but it's not that cut and dry, the parents may not be the brightest buttons in the box themselves, and if teaching is so easy why does simply 'being a parent' not become the qualification required to stand before a class ?
Differing teaching methods to how we learned things (sums thread) leave most parents stumped tbh. and makes it more difficult for parents to help. When you have done arithmetic one way for 90% of your life it becomes very difficult to do it differently, and the kids end up having to teach you so that you can help them.

I personally want my kids to be kids, do the stuff we used to do like play out, yet a great deal of time during the week is taken up by homework, stopping them from doing those things. We never had homework at primary school, we did all the work in the classroom, and there was ample time for the lone teacher to teach us it, yet now there is a teacher and classroom assistants but work still needs to be brought home.

There is also the thing where parents do the homework, the kids copy it, get top marks and get pushed forward, if they then do worse than expected in sats it can be put down to 'the stress of sitting the examination.'

 

[Bruce Wayne]

just teaching them the same way throughout their schooling solves it.

I agree with what you say about maths Bruce to an extent, something clicks with it and when it does everything becomes apparent and obvious, but until then they stay confused by it all. I got my daughter into an extra maths class, and after 2 of the lessons it clicked and she breezed through the course, from really struggling tbh, now if that is all that's required for kids to advance it should be made available to all. As it was there were limited places, same faces got in as get all the parts in the school plays etc i.e. those with parents that do stuff at the school, we only got her on it half way through because a friend was moving house and told us to ask for any place that came up just before she informed them that she was flitting.

These guys have apparently achieved fantastic results in maths and science stateside.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/07/ff_khan/

 

[Reidy's Bottle Of Grecian]

These guys have apparently achieved fantastic results in maths and science stateside.

http://www.wired.com/magazine/2011/07/ff_khan/

seen similar with a guy in Hong Kong I think ? he runs a school after school, those that can afford it pay, those that can't don't as he refuses to turn kids away based on their parents wealth, in fact the paying ones pay over the odds to fund the poorer kids cos if they didn't he wouldn't take the 'rich kids' on.

There are plenty of schools in the country that choose their own way of teaching, one in Skem (maharishi yogi's) far outperforms the state schools, and doesn't do the national curriculum, each kid has a tailored curriculum and the schools results speak for themselves, it's one of the ones that is being given academy funding, is that it ? there are about a dozen in the country getting this new status.

how many 'lost generations' do we have to have before we get it right ffs, cos 15 years down the line when there is even more youth unemployment, who exactly will be held accountable for a failed system that was implemented and then thrown away ?

If things are to change then use another tried and trusted method that works. They don't even go to school until age 7 in Sweden, our kids have had 3 years of schooling and homework by that age in some cases, which countries kids leave school the most qualified ?

 

[HSD]

I see what you mean. Though I think it kinda depends what primary school it is - my first one I learnt the pointless stuff which you're talking about, but I changed schools in year 4 and learnt the actual stuff you start to learn in High School - the school was tonnes better.

I do think they teach some pointless things and maybe they should be teaching more difficult things but then a lot of the stuff I learnt in High School in Maths, my parents didn't learn until College so I dunno.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

A bit of experimentation might see some suffer in the short-term but it will surely benefit everyone in the long-term. The PISA results show Britain falling quite far behind other nations in key subjects and the annual grade inflation should not be allowed to cover this up.

 

[Reidy's Bottle Of Grecian]

I see what you mean. Though I think it kinda depends what primary school it is - my first one I learnt the pointless stuff which you're talking about, but I changed schools in year 4 and learnt the actual stuff you start to learn in High School - the school was tonnes better.

I do think they teach some pointless things and maybe they should be teaching more difficult things but then a lot of the stuff I learnt in High School in Maths, my parents didn't learn until College so I dunno.

some schools around me elected to do phonetic spelling throughout the whole time there, no marks off for correct but phonetics allowed.
WTF for ? phonetics are no use to anyone and those kids were then in all the lower sets in English 'cos they couldn't spell, they'll be turning a blind eye to txt spk next and those that can't express themselves in more than 145 characters and a hashtag.

 

[HSD]

There are plenty of schools in the country that choose their own way of teaching, one in Skem (maharishi yogi's) far outperforms the state schools, and doesn't do the national curriculum, each kid has a tailored curriculum and the schools results speak for themselves, it's one of the ones that is being given academy funding, is that it ? there are about a dozen in the country getting this new status.

My old High School became a Business & Enterprise College while I was there, but it's becoming an Academy next year and it's all been re-built and it looks amazing. But I don't think that'll completely change grades and things. It was already in the top 3 for Manchester or whatever but there are still plenty of future "dole doser" kids that go simply because of the area.
So these days I think it's just down to the kids. If the kids want to do well and their parents encourage it etc. then I believe they will do well, but if they're the type of kids who for whatever reason think school is pointless and don't work then I think there's not much changing that tbh.

Youth today.

 

[SaffaBlue]

Yeah, the high school maths I did in a third world country, my dad hadnt seen in high school til uni in England.

I agree that repetition of tables is important. But its actually repetition overall that is important.

If I read my Economics textbook once, I fail. If I read it twice, I pass.

 

[Reidy's Bottle Of Grecian]

My old High School became a Business & Enterprise College while I was there, but it's becoming an Academy next year and it's all been re-built and it looks amazing. But I don't think that'll completely change grades and things. It was already in the top 3 for Manchester or whatever but there are still plenty of future "dole doser" kids that go simply because of the area.
So these days I think it's just down to the kids. If the kids want to do well and their parents encourage it etc. then I believe they will do well, but if they're the type of kids who for whatever reason think school is pointless and don't work then I think there's not much changing that tbh.

Youth today.

there were plenty of cba kids in my day too, but the school wasn't allowed to give up on them and let them just be in the system, repeatedly not doing homework etc would get them a caning (not advocating a return to that ffs), at the end of the day it is a child, someone who is not of an age to make such far reaching decisions and so it was the schools duty to still try to educate them. Letting them make decisions and then years down the line saying "well you wasn't interested aged 13" isn't on.

 

[HSD]

there were plenty of cba kids in my day too, but the school wasn't allowed to give up on them and let them just be in the system, repeatedly not doing homework etc would get them a caning (not advocating a return to that ffs), at the end of the day it is a child, someone who is not of an age to make such far reaching decisions and so it was the schools duty to still try to educate them. Letting them make decisions and then years down the line saying "well you wasn't interested aged 13" isn't on.

No I totally agree with you, I'm not saying these kids should be allowed to get away with it. But unfortunately these days if they tried to cane a kid, the kid would turn around and punch the teacher. I don't agree with canning, but they shouldn't be allowed to get away with it.

It's a difficult one really, because I don't understand kids like that.

I don't want to be one to say it's their fault or their parents or anything, but I don't get it. Considering the Primary school I went to first was FULL of them kinds of kids, I still managed to get away from that and end up with As and Bs, and was predicted straight A*s so I don't understand why them or their parents wouldn't want them to do well :/

 

[chrissyjack]

Maybe some kids have a "cba" attitude because there is too much pressure on them these days. When I went to primary school ( many summers ago, mind ) it was fun, and we all liked going. Even high school was probably a lot more enjoyable when I went, to what it is now