Stacey Dooley investigates...

[Blue 1]

Some pretty balanced opinions there Nik, in fairness to you.

I don't like the burqa or the niqab either, just because facial expression is a huge part of communication, and it's kind of like telling me to [Poor language removed] off by wearing it. It seems to make the assumption that men are beasts.

It's a side issue though really, there's thought to be less than 1000 or so women in the entire country who wear the full burqa.

I'd never call for a ban on it, either. It's their business if they want to wear it, really. It's funny when people (not you) say it's oppressive, then want to "free muslim women from oppression" by removing their freedom of choice. The security issue thing or comparison to balaclavas or hoodies doesn't really work for me. We haven't had burqa-clad gangs of muslim women pulling armed robberies or such like.

Luton has been a pretty rough town as long as I can remember. I used to go to warehouse raves there throughout the '90's and there were plenty of bad crackheads at them and I can remember the riots in Marsh Farm. It does seem to be getting a particularly bad press at the moment, mainly because of the terrorist links and the EDL I guess.

 

[EFCNIK]

Some pretty balanced opinions there Nik, in fairness to you.

I don't like the burqa or the niqab either, just because facial expression is a huge part of communication, and it's kind of like telling me to [Poor language removed] off by wearing it. It seems to make the assumption that men are beasts.

It's a side issue though really, there's thought to be less than 1000 or so women in the entire country who wear the full burqa.

I'd never call for a ban on it, either. It's their business if they want to wear it, really. It's funny when people (not you) say it's oppressive, then want to "free muslim women from oppression" by removing their freedom of choice. The security issue thing or comparison to balaclavas or hoodies doesn't really work for me. We haven't had burqa-clad gangs of muslim women pulling armed robberies or such like.

Luton has been a pretty rough town as long as I can remember. I used to go to warehouse raves there throughout the '90's and there were plenty of bad crackheads at them and I can remember the riots in Marsh Farm. It does seem to be getting a particularly bad press at the moment, mainly because of the terrorist links and the EDL I guess.

I know of cases where someone's gone into a shop wearing a Burkah, man or women (who the **** knows at the end of the day?!) and quite blatently shoplifted. Of course CCTV is rendered useless in a situation like that. I've witnessed first hand a women putting things underneath her Burkah and the manager coming down and questioning her and her going in broken English 'oh you racist, you racist'. And also, and I'm not saying 'all women wearing Burkah's must have bombs strapped to them blud', if there's even the slightest risk of a Burkah being used to conceal anything like that then that's a slight risk too far. I think we have a duty to protect our citizens over anything else and there is a very real risk of terrorism at the moment. Of course we can't then say no one can bring a rucksack out in public, but seeings as it's not actually in The Qur'an that a woman has to wear one, I think we can illiminate this particular risk from society.

Parts of Luton are very rough, but some of my family are from Redcar near Middlesboro and also parts of Liverpool- Luton doesn't even come close.

 

[Reidy's Bottle Of Grecian]

What's High Town like mate ?
My mate has been down there for a few weeks staying at his birds, and he has been telling me about a very dodgy bookies and irish pub where he said it seems anything goes ?

 

[Blue 1]

I know of cases where someone's gone into a shop wearing a Burkah, man or women (who the **** knows at the end of the day?!) and quite blatently shoplifted. Of course CCTV is rendered useless in a situation like that. I've witnessed first hand a women putting things underneath her Burkah and the manager coming down and questioning her and her going in broken English 'oh you racist, you racist'. And also, and I'm not saying 'all women wearing Burkah's must have bombs strapped to them blud', if there's even the slightest risk of a Burkah being used to conceal anything like that then that's a slight risk too far. I think we have a duty to protect our citizens over anything else and there is a very real risk of terrorism at the moment. Of course we can't then say no one can bring a rucksack out in public, but seeings as it's not actually in The Qur'an that a woman has to wear one, I think we can illiminate this particular risk from society.

Parts of Luton are very rough, but some of my family are from Redcar near Middlesboro and also parts of Liverpool- Luton doesn't even come close.

Redcar?

That's a grim old part of the country.

You can use any large, loose garment to conceal stuff for shoplifting, or to conceal a bomb. Where do you stop? It shouldn't render CCTV useless 'cos they must have concealed the item under the clothing at some point and it should see them do that. And I'm sure there have been women who've pulled the **** you say. They can cry racist all they like, there's nothing racist about pulling them for shoplifting.

Yeah, they are more of a cultural thing than a religious thing. I'd imagine one would be quite handy in a desert environment. Keep the sun off you and keep the sand out of your eyes! But like I say, it's not that common, supposedly less than 100 women in the entire country. It's one of the more visible things and one that people like to get het up about because it's so alien to us.

I'm just very wary of banning items of clothing. That seems more "anti-British" to me than anything else mentioned here and is a dangerous road to start down.

Funnily enough I remember reading something a few years back that said the places with the most violent crime per population were Luton, inner-city Liverpool and Northampton!

 

[EFCNIK]

What's High Town like mate ?
My mate has been down there for a few weeks staying at his birds, and he has been telling me about a very dodgy bookies and irish pub where he said it seems anything goes ?

Dunno mate, don't go down there. I hardly ever go to Luton tbh. I go out in Bedford or MK and shop in MK so no reason for me too. High Towns not nice to look at though that's for sure.

Redcar?

That's a grim old part of the country.

You can use any large, loose garment to conceal stuff for shoplifting, or to conceal a bomb. Where do you stop? It shouldn't render CCTV useless 'cos they must have concealed the item under the clothing at some point and it should see them do that. And I'm sure there have been women who've pulled the **** you say. They can cry racist all they like, there's nothing racist about pulling them for shoplifting.

I'm just very wary of banning items of clothing. That seems more "anti-British" to me than anything else mentioned here and is a dangerous road to start down.

I guess what I'm saying is kind of hypocritical. I just dont agree with it, never will. I think it looks awful and has no place in a Western world. I think all the things you just mentioned are potential hazards but are part of our culture. The Burkah is a hazard that isn't. It's unnessessary. It IS oppression of women. Just because they want to wear it doesn't mean it's a symbol of anything less. They will have been brought up being told they have to wear it so they'll believe it. In there homes absolutely but not on the streets in Britain. It's just uncomfortable for all concerned. But anyway, I respect your opinion and I dont wanna argue, I just will never agree on this issue. I think The Burkah's been done to death on here before anyway so I won't continue sounding off haha!

 

[Clint Planet]

Giraffe i read your comments on the racism thread the other night , what are/were your opinions on that prog tonight.

Well, first of all I'd like to say I was rather impressed with Ms Dooley. She's hardly an intellectual heavyweight but I was expecting something akin to Lisa from Steps investigates the Ku Klux Klan and yet she had a refreshing open-mindedness and even wisdom about a lot of her reporting. I think she let those taking the extreme position hang themselves to an extent, not least by her own wish to reason with them, and gave a voice to moderate voices which, thank god, gave a truer picture of what that vast majority of Muslims actually think.

What was apparent was that, as anyone with any intelligence must surely acknowledge, it is alienation (and discrimination, in my view) which breeds extreme reaction, not the scriptures of Islam or Christianity. As was said, 9/11 was designed precisely to create the racial and cultural tension that Nik now sees in Luton on a daily basis so we should all of us, on both sides, beware of being manipulated in the politics of hate.

Of course there were some infuriating scenes (the two self-righteous young radicals, the provocative march) but wherever there is economic hardship and cultural discrimination there will be angry young radicals looking for a way to vent their misguided spleen. One of the best things that Dooley did was don a burkah herself and walk into Luton town centre. It really brought it home how aliening and indeed intimidating western culture can be. I love dthe way she felt both threatened and indignant.

There are no easy solutions, of course, but hopefully more people can take Dooley's open-hearted position and refuse to be drawn into a them and us stand-off. That way, as she well knows, bloodshed and heartbreak lie.

 

[EFCNIK]

Well, first of all I'd like to say I was rather impressed with Ms Dooley. She's hardly an intellectual heavyweight but I was expecting something akin to Lisa from Steps investigates the Ku Klux Klan and yet she had a refreshing open-mindedness and even wisdom about a lot of her reporting. I think she let those taking the extreme position hang themselves to an extent, not least by her own wish to reason with them, and gave a voice to moderate voices which, thank god, gave a truer picture of what that vast majority of Muslims actually think.

What was apparent was that, as anyone with any intelligence must surely acknowledge, it is alienation (and discrimination, in my view) which breeds extreme reaction, not the scriptures of Islam or Christianity. As was said, 9/11 was designed precisely to create the racial and cultural tension that Nik now sees in Luton on a daily basis so we should all of us, on both sides, beware of being manipulated in the politics of hate.

Of course there were some infuriating scenes (the two self-righteous young radicals, the provocative march) but wherever there is economic hardship and cultural discrimination there will be angry young radicals looking for a way to vent their misguided spleen. One of the best things that Dooley did was don a burkah herself and walk into Luton town centre. It really brought it home how aliening and indeed intimidating western culture can be. I love dthe way she felt both threatened and indignant.

There are no easy solutions, of course, but hopefully more people can take Dooley's open-hearted position and refuse to be drawn into a them and us stand-off. That way, as she well knows, bloodshed and heartbreak lie.

Well put mate. Have to say I'm enjoying reading a lot of this thread. I admit I haven't been the most open minded before and its interesting to here peoples views when they're not trying to make me foam! I definatly got how intimidating it would have been for those girls walking into main town centre and having people stare at them. Whilst I completely catagorically and profoundly disagree with the burkah wearing, how can they intimidate what is quite clearly 3 young girls? That will never be right no matter what you think of what they're wearing. What did you think of Steven Leonard and how he came across Giraffe?

 

[Hibbosculturedrightboot]

I watched it. I thought the reporter was an embarrassment. She was like something out of Brass Eye - a complete piss take. How she has a job in any news organisation let alone the BBC is mystifying. She was thoroughly unprofessional and obvioulsy had a personal connection of some sort with Lennon/Robinson so her objectivity was zero. She just went about hectoring 'the bad Muslims' and fawning all over the 'good Muslims'.

A very sad day for the BBC when they let some ****ing imbecile like that gather and present views for them.

As for what some of the protestors said about soldiers etc: as pointed out they numbered a hiuindred or so. That tells you all you need to know right there. Every town has them. And you might not like it but they are right that they have the freedom to do that in this country. Dont like it? Tough, it's called a democracy.

I'd still damage her foof if I got half a chance though.