Squad depth

[Bruce Wayne]

With the injured players on their way back it's giving the squad a really strong look to it. Just looking through things quickly we have 22 senior players in the first team squad, 24 if you include VDM and Da Silva. With many of those capable of playing in numerous positions we have good options in pretty much every area of the pitch.

GK: Howard, Wessels, Turner (3)
DEF: Hibbert, Yobo, Lescott, Stubbs, Baines, Valente, Jagielka (7)
MID: Neville, Carsley, Cahill, Arteta, Pienaar, Osman, Graveson, VDM, Da Silva (9)
ATT: Yak, AJ, Vic, Vaughan, McFadden (5)

Toss in a few of the young lads such as Ruddy, Boyle, Vidarrson and Lukas and the squad is taking shape nicely. I think if we can pick up a really top notch holding player in January then things will be coming along very well indeed.

 

[micknick]

The good things is we pretty much have a 'B' team that could rival the 'A' team.

My A:

-------------Howard--------------
Jags----Yobo-------Lescott-----Baines
Arteta----Carsley----Cahill----Pienaar
--------Vaughan-----AJ-----------

My B:
-------------Wessels---------------
Hibbert---Stubbs-----Neville----Valente
VDM----Da Silva----Gravesen----Ossie
-------------Yak-----Mcfadden-----

 

[GhostOfDixie]

Can't believe you would want AJ over Yak, considering that AJ scoring record is shocking at the moment. And also you would have Faddy over Anichebe.

But opinions are just that.

 

[micknick]

It could go either way I was just demonstrating that we have two teams good enough to compete. Slightly worried about our lack of options at CB

 

[Sim]

I'm more worried we have no wingers, I know I've said it plenty of times before but we need wingers if we are to move up a notch.

Thats a good squad, but it still lacks enough quality to provide more chances for the strikers. I'd say that squad is good enough to finish top 8 if we play well and top 5 if we play out of our skin.

There are still key areas of improvement. At least one natural, run with the ball winger and as bruce pointed out a damn good holding midfiielder. The other areas I think should be covered by the youngsters.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

It depends how you want to play doesn't it? Obviously Man Utd play with traditional wingers, but Arsenal generally use Hleb and Rosicky on the flanks. I'd say they have more in common with Arteta/Osman/Pienaar than they do with Ronaldo and Nani.

 

[micknick]

Wingers are only effective if you have the forwards to benefit from their crosses. I prefer right/left midfielders that can play it through and battle back.

I agree completely about the dominant midfielder though. I think there is a bit of money to spend and hopefully we will see a new face in January.

 

[micknick]

It depends how you want to play doesn't it? Obviously Man Utd play with traditional wingers, but Arsenal generally use Hleb and Rosicky on the flanks. I'd say they have more in common with Arteta/Osman/Pienaar than they do with Ronaldo and Nani.

Wingers are only effective if you have the forwards to benefit from their crosses. I prefer right/left midfielders that can play it through and battle back.

I agree completely about the dominant midfielder though. I think there is a bit of money to spend and hopefully we will see a new face in January.

Thats what I was saying

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I made this point about 'wingers' during pre-season as it does appear to be a growing trend for clubs to play reasonably holding players in the middle of a four, with attacking players cutting in from the flanks. The width is then providing by overlapping full backs.

If you look around the world I'm not sure there are even ten world class wingers in the Ronaldo mould so in many ways it makes sense to try and build the team the way we are.

 

[Sim]

It depends how you want to play doesn't it? Obviously Man Utd play with traditional wingers, but Arsenal generally use Hleb and Rosicky on the flanks. I'd say they have more in common with Arteta/Osman/Pienaar than they do with Ronaldo and Nani.

Yeah but Bruce Arteta seems to be the only one who stays wide while pienaar and osman tend to come back to the middle causing that midfield to get very packed and it limits our ability to open the opposition up.

And mick, you can say that we need strikers to benefit from a winger, but thats only if you whacking crosses all the time. A wingers job is not just to cross, but to create width draggin defenders out wide exposing the centre and taking pressure defenders away from the strikers.

Wasnt it the great mr Kendall who used to preach how a team MUST have wingers to succeed?

 

[Sim]

I made this point about 'wingers' during pre-season as it does appear to be a growing trend for clubs to play reasonably holding players in the middle of a four, with attacking players cutting in from the flanks. The width is then providing by overlapping full backs.

If you look around the world I'm not sure there are even ten world class wingers in the Ronaldo mould so in many ways it makes sense to try and build the team the way we are.

Yeah but only because everyone else is doing it why should we?

Everyone in the premiership started moving to 451 after we had success using it, now we've had the courage to actually try to move to a more 442, and so are other teams. Trends come and go, only cos wingers arnt a feature of many teams right now, doesnt mean we shouldnt employ them.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

It's an interesting point. If you look at Barcelona for instance, they play with two of the best wingers around in Ronaldinho and Messi, but both play on the opposite flank to the one you would expect. Messi hardly ever goes down the outside of his marker, he's always cutting inside onto his left foot. Ronaldinho often does the same on the left flank.

The two guys at Arsenal often do the same, with the goal for Fabregas at the weekend a good example.

I do agree that the wide players do have to start from a position of width to create space in the middle but it seems the trend for these players to start wide and invariably cut inside. The traditional width is then provided by the full backs over-lapping. I don't think we have the latter just yet, as neither full back position has really been nailed down. Hopefully in the coming weeks/months however Baines will make the left back position his own and Jags/Neville the right back.

Like I said, it's an interesting point. I suspect for every Kendall you'll have a Ramsey. Potato, potato.

 

[micknick]

I love the way football is played in a 4-4-2 with two wingers, a defensive midfielder, a creative midfielder, a tall strong centre forward and a little nippy strike partner. The only problem is you get the Ardiles/Keegan situation of scoring 3 but the other team scoring 4.

I like a wide player to be able to get back and defend as well as pick a pass and take players on. Lennon is a good player for Spurs, but you sacrafice defensive cover for what he offers in attack. I personally prefer a Pienaar or and Arteta so that yes, they can get forward but defending isnt a problem either.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Yeah but only because everyone else is doing it why should we?

Everyone in the premiership started moving to 451 after we had success using it, now we've had the courage to actually try to move to a more 442, and so are other teams. Trends come and go, only cos wingers arnt a feature of many teams right now, doesnt mean we shouldnt employ them.

Well if I was pedantic I'd say we copied the 4-5-1 from the Greek team in Euro 2004 but I won't

Like I said earlier, can you name me 10 world class wingers in the Ronaldo mould?

If you were to analyse things I suspect it would mainly come down to risk. Modern football relies heavily on possession because teams are so good at keeping it you don't want to give it up unduly. If you look at England in the last world cup we lost the ball time after time by trying to play hollywood passes when they weren't really on. Using tricky wingers to get crosses in, as was traditionally the case, is I suspect a low percentage play in terms of success. The rise of the 4-5-1 was the epitomy of playing the percentages to get the most out of limited ability and I suspect the demise of traditional wing play is the same, due in part to a lack both of traditional wingers plus traditional target men.

 

[Sim]

Maybe I'm completely wrong about wingers, but my gut feeling is thats the missing piece of the puzzle with this Everton team.

I remember when players like Beagrie, Kanchelskis, Steven, Limpar and Sheedy would turn it on and we would look good and win. Also I appreciate that your usual wingers do have a reputation for not doing enough teamwork/defending, so maybe thats why Moyes doesnt favour them.