Racism facing black players going into management?

[RaleighBlue]

I can't speak specifically to racism/discrimination in the UK, but in the US this is a tricky problem. Because many of the issues are systemic, they're self-perpetuating and/or culturally reinforced. If you could "take away discrimination" (not that I even know what this means), you're still not giving a historically racially discriminated group even footing. I agree they're not the correct measures, but "unfair" measures such as affirmative action or the Rooney rule are the best efforts I've yet seen to give social standing back to groups historically discriminated against.

Certainly US affairs are different in the specifics, but I really doubt that racism is any different from one nation and culture to the next. This is a good (but long read) on the kind of inherent (if even unintentional) racism that continues to exist in the US: http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2014/05/the-case-for-reparations/361631/

(No text here because it's too long--a 15 minute read)

The best way to think about it is this:

Assume all 'racism' goes away tomorrow (lol, but bear with me). Will minorities immediately be able to compete with white men economically and socially? The answer is no. The answer is no because in the general case, minorities have less in their formative years. Less money, less attention, less education, less safety, etc. All of these things lead to them being blocked from places the white male majority can go more easily.

The only fix to that is to try and bring all that less into balance. This is a supremely difficult problem. One of the ways to attempt it is by giving their parents a little leg up on providing economically and hoping the rest will come. Affirmative Action and the Rooney rule et. al. are not there for the person that is directly benefiting. They are there so that their children will be more likely to grow up in a healthier, positive environment and have more chances at being meritocratically equal on paper as well as in person. If they have a better opportunity at decent middle class or above jobs, then their kids are more likely to go to good schools, stay out of gangs, and go to college. All of which begin to turn discriminatory ideas and actions away.

This is a macro-sociological practice though. Individual stories don't really prove or disprove it. It only suffices in the general case. Exceptional people can succeed from any beginning and other can fail from any beginning. The point is to one day, hopefully, have a place in which people are succeeding and failing entirely on merit, rather than on the platform that they were given.

Edit: I am not saying Affirmative Action and the Rooney Rule are the only, or best ways to do this. Just that the ideas behind them are designed to build a platform for which minorities can eventually compete purely on their own merit.

 

[SerenityNigh]

The best way to think about it is this:

Assume all 'racism' goes away tomorrow (lol, but bear with me). Will minorities immediately be able to compete with white men economically and socially? The answer is no. The answer is no because in the general case, minorities have less in their formative years. Less money, less attention, less education, less safety, etc. All of these things lead to them being blocked from places the white male majority can go more easily.

The only fix to that is to try and bring all that less into balance. This is a supremely difficult problem. One of the ways to attempt it is by giving their parents a little leg up on providing economically and hoping the rest will come. Affirmative Action and the Rooney rule et. al. are not there for the person that is directly benefiting. They are there so that their children will be more likely to grow up in a healthier, positive environment and have more chances at being meritocratically equal on paper as well as in person. If they have a better opportunity at decent middle class or above jobs, then their kids are more likely to go to good schools, stay out of gangs, and go to college. All of which begin to turn discriminatory ideas and actions away.

This is a macro-sociological practice though. Individual stories don't really prove or disprove it. It only suffices in the general case. Exceptional people can succeed from any beginning and other can fail from any beginning. The point is to one day, hopefully, have a place in which people are succeeding and failing entirely on merit, rather than on the platform that they were given.

Edit: I am not saying Affirmative Action and the Rooney Rule are the only, or best ways to do this. Just that the ideas behind them are designed to build a platform for which minorities can eventually compete purely on their own merit.

This reminds me of an odd but extremely interesting fact from the first Freakonomics book. Adopted children score on standardized tests very closely to their biological parents instead of their adoptive parents. But the children of adopted children score very closely to their adoptive grandparents instead of their biological parents.

 

[f.t.r.s]

sick of hearing about people playing the race card.

Black and asian and every other minority will have fewer managers purely due to the fact that they are a MINORITY.
if a population of 70 million people has 60 million white, 5 million black and 5 million asian then it stands to reason there will be a larger proportion of white people in employment, it's maths not racism.

This is similar to the gender issue, people need to realise that the best person for the job should be employed, regardless of gender, skin colour or religion

 

[EFCNIK]

I think it's good that the racist card has been so overplayed that people are now starting to take the piss out of it. I feared that the country was going in a direction where everything was declared racist and that white people were going to start to suffer from 'positive discrimination'. I think the type of people from minorities who declare racism at every opportunity have shot themselves in the foot. Good.

 

[Walken]

This reminds me of an odd but extremely interesting fact from the first Freakonomics book. Adopted children score on standardized tests very closely to their biological parents instead of their adoptive parents. But the children of adopted children score very closely to their adoptive grandparents instead of their biological parents.

i think my mind has just melted

 

[Reemul]

sick of hearing about people playing the race card.

Black and asian and every other minority will have fewer managers purely due to the fact that they are a MINORITY.
if a population of 70 million people has 60 million white, 5 million black and 5 million asian then it stands to reason there will be a larger proportion of white people in employment, it's maths not racism.

This is similar to the gender issue, people need to realise that the best person for the job should be employed, regardless of gender, skin colour or religion

The problem is you have 25% black players and 0.4% black managers. 13% of the UK is classed as black or other race 0.4% is certainly not a decent reflection of this is it.

This point - people need to realise that the best person for the job should be employed, regardless of gender, skin colour or religion - Exactly, unless you are black where you will be discarded or not chosen regardless of if you are good enough just because of the colour of your skin.

 

[davidloach]

Hasselbaink is Burton Albion's new manager
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/30003191

 

[mrb85]

You have to be very careful handling the sort of statistics bandied about in the report. For instance, it may be that a quarter of players are black but how many are British citizens? There are many foreign black players in the English leagues many of whom would never have any intention of considering management in the Uk. As soon as their contracts finish or their careers end most can't get home quickly enough. Also given the time it takes to get the necessary qualifications and then get some level of coaching experience, we should be comparing the proportion of current black managers with the proportion of black players some 5 - 10 years ago. The contrast would not be so stark.

 

[bol-uk]

Continuing the equality theme: Is it a mans job to change the lightbulb in the car? The car I bought for my wife and she uses for work.

She came in today and said "the bulb has gone in the headlight". "OK, you can get one from Halfords tomorrow when you are in town" I said.

"But you need to do it, it's a mans job" she said.

Bearing in mind I have spent the afternoon laying a hearth in the fireplace, washing-up,mopping, cooking dinner and doing the kids homework.

If I was to say to her, "you need to need to wash up, it's a womans job" I'd have all her lefty friends round in about 10 minutes.

Am I wrong to think she is taking the piss?

Women want the best of both worlds, equal placing in the boardroom but won't carry heavy bags of shopping.

 

[Reemul]

You have to be very careful handling the sort of statistics bandied about in the report. For instance, it may be that a quarter of players are black but how many are British citizens? There are many foreign black players in the English leagues many of whom would never have any intention of considering management in the Uk. As soon as their contracts finish or their careers end most can't get home quickly enough. Also given the time it takes to get the necessary qualifications and then get some level of coaching experience, we should be comparing the proportion of current black managers with the proportion of black players some 5 - 10 years ago. The contrast would not be so stark.

What ever way you say it 4 black managers in the professional game is showing there is an issue of some sort. I can understand at the top end of the game where competition is fierce just to get a job if you are British let alone a minority.

I think one issue is still jobs for the boys and also a history of the same people getting the smae jobs over and over, breaking in is not easy, I think if you are a minority it is even harder and we just need to ensure it is fair for all.

 

[Philw]

Hasselbaink is Burton Albion's new manager
http://www.bbc.com/sport/0/football/30003191

Some cynics might suggest his application looked just that little better due to the timing...

You have to be very careful handling the sort of statistics bandied about in the report. For instance, it may be that a quarter of players are black but how many are British citizens? There are many foreign black players in the English leagues many of whom would never have any intention of considering management in the Uk. As soon as their contracts finish or their careers end most can't get home quickly enough. Also given the time it takes to get the necessary qualifications and then get some level of coaching experience, we should be comparing the proportion of current black managers with the proportion of black players some 5 - 10 years ago. The contrast would not be so stark.

1. Jimmy Floyd disagrees
2. A good point that has been brought up before/in one of the links - the people applying for management roles would likely have been playing 10-20 years ago when racism was more of an issue than it is now, and hence those players were less likely to want to pursue a career in management. Ergo we should be comparing management figures now to player figures from then...

 

[Philw]

Continuing the equality theme: Is it a mans job to change the lightbulb in the car? The car I bought for my wife and she uses for work.

She came in today and said "the bulb has gone in the headlight". "OK, you can get one from Halfords tomorrow when you are in town" I said.

"But you need to do it, it's a mans job" she said.

Bearing in mind I have spent the afternoon laying a hearth in the fireplace, washing-up,mopping, cooking dinner and doing the kids homework.

If I was to say to her, "you need to need to wash up, it's a womans job" I'd have all her lefty friends round in about 10 minutes.

Am I wrong to think she is taking the piss?

Women want the best of both worlds, equal placing in the boardroom but won't carry heavy bags of shopping.

Haha, I know where you are coming from. Working in a largely female environment I always get called to do all the labouring jobs. Now I'm not the biggest guy out there, and there's a few girls there bigger, and I'd dare say as strong or stronger than me. I like to joke with them that if they want equal pay then they should do it themselves!

What ever way you say it 4 black managers in the professional game is showing there is an issue of some sort. I can understand at the top end of the game where competition is fierce just to get a job if you are British let alone a minority.

I think one issue is still jobs for the boys and also a history of the same people getting the smae jobs over and over, breaking in is not easy, I think if you are a minority it is even harder and we just need to ensure it is fair for all.

Totally, and similar to what Serenity and Raleigh said before, the issues of the past are making it difficult for the people of the present. It's not people being racist per se, it's them sticking to their old cronies, who just happen to mainly all be white, because years ago you had to be...

 

[bol-uk]

Haha, I know where you are coming from. Working in a largely female environment I always get called to do all the labouring jobs. Now I'm not the biggest guy out there, and there's a few girls there bigger, and I'd dare say as strong or stronger than me. I like to joke with them that if they want equal pay then they should do it themselves!




This is it. I am all for equality, good knows it would be great but, it needs to be equal. Men are now expected to do an equal share of housework and childcare but all the crap jobs too.

I don't see many women demanding equal representation on building sites, the front line or road digging etc.

 

[RaleighBlue]

Surely you see the difference between how people decide to interact in a relationship and how society systematically treats people, yeah?

I have a fairly traditional relationship - my wife stays home and does housework and laundry and stuff, and I go to work. This is because we chose to have this relationship. Equality is about being able to chose a different relationship. One where I stay home and she works.

If you have a particular issue with an individual, or a set of individuals wanting their cake and eating it too, then that is an issue with the individual.

Women should have equal rights on building sites, the front line, and road digging as well. Whether a large portion of women choose those routes is unimportant. It's important that they have the same options that men do.

 

[red1]

Haha, I know where you are coming from. Working in a largely female environment I always get called to do all the labouring jobs. Now I'm not the biggest guy out there, and there's a few girls there bigger, and I'd dare say as strong or stronger than me. I like to joke with them that if they want equal pay then they should do it themselves!

Then stop bending over for them lol Otherwise they should at least be bringing you cups of tea and some chocolate chip cookies every now and then for your hard work.