Racism facing black players going into management?

[davek]

John Barnes kicks off at Tranmere by blasting 'race barrier' | Football | guardian.co.uk

Has Barnes got a point? Best man for the job and all that, but do the proportion of black players getting managers jobs point toward their exclusion?

 

[Cahill's Metatarsal]

I think there could well be a level of racism in football that is preventing more black people getting jobs but I think the main issue is that clubs would rather employ someone who has experience of top European leagues than take a chance on someone who has experience in the lower leagues of this country. There are loads of white managers who do great jobs outside the Premiership but don't get a chance higher up, that's not a race issue, that's a football issue.

His point about Ince is a poor 1, he was someone who was given half a chance but he was trying to emulate someone who had done a good job & wasn't given nearly enough time to make it work. Again, I don't think this is a race issue but a football issue. It seems to be the done thing that when a successful manager leaves, you bring someone in then boot him out before he's had a chance to build his own squad & play the sort of football he wants to play. The next manager then comes to a struggling team with less pressure & so gets more of a chance. Ince got a little chance at Blackburn regardless of his skin colour & I don't think he'd have got a bigger chance if he'd have been white.

As for Barnes, he got a chance at a massive club when he had no experience of management, not many people get that sort of opportunity & the simple fact is he was a huge failure. Many, many white people have done poorly in their 1st job & barely been given a sniff since, many managers have done really well for a lot of teams then had a poor spell & all of a sudden been thrown on the scrapheap. The fact that this is his 1st managerial job in this country is down to his poor performance at Celtic & the thought methods of chairmen as a whole, I really don't think his skin colour has anything to do with that whatsoever

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Very difficult to make any kind of statement with such a sparcity of facts. If we're looking at first jobs in management, ie for managers with no experience, then we can only really go on their qualifications. Is there any data on the qualifications held by aspiring coaches?

 

[Goat]

Im not sure.

But Ince and Barnes love to play that race card. If they both did a good job it wouldnt even be an issue.

I wonder what the percentage of black English footballers are in the leagues. And then what the percentage of footballers who go into management. That would provide an interesting stat.

A lot of foreign black players will play in this country and then when their careers are over go back Home, such as the French players and the Africans.

Another way to look at it is this. I would imagine there is a very high percentage of Scottish managers who have been successful. So that would mean that "race" is good at management?

Its hard to say, its a minefield subject really.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

It is a very difficult subject. Without wishing to play down racism as equality should be a given in modern society, I can't help but think that greater discrimination is given to those coaches trying to make it in the game that didn't have a strong playing career. Would a Mourinho, Wenger or Eriksson ever emerge in England having had little to no playing career to speak of?

 

[davek]

I think there could well be a level of racism in football that is preventing more black people getting jobs but I think the main issue is that clubs would rather employ someone who has experience of top European leagues than take a chance on someone who has experience in the lower leagues of this country. There are loads of white managers who do great jobs outside the Premiership but don't get a chance higher up, that's not a race issue, that's a football issue.

His point about Ince is a poor 1, he was someone who was given half a chance but he was trying to emulate someone who had done a good job & wasn't given nearly enough time to make it work. Again, I don't think this is a race issue but a football issue. It seems to be the done thing that when a successful manager leaves, you bring someone in then boot him out before he's had a chance to build his own squad & play the sort of football he wants to play. The next manager then comes to a struggling team with less pressure & so gets more of a chance. Ince got a little chance at Blackburn regardless of his skin colour & I don't think he'd have got a bigger chance if he'd have been white.

As for Barnes, he got a chance at a massive club when he had no experience of management, not many people get that sort of opportunity & the simple fact is he was a huge failure. Many, many white people have done poorly in their 1st job & barely been given a sniff since, many managers have done really well for a lot of teams then had a poor spell & all of a sudden been thrown on the scrapheap. The fact that this is his 1st managerial job in this country is down to his poor performance at Celtic & the thought methods of chairmen as a whole, I really don't think his skin colour has anything to do with that whatsoever

Fair point about Barnes. He got a top job and came second in a two horse race.

The figures are pretty damning though. From 2007: "Less than 1% of senior coaching staff at the 92 league clubs are black - even though more than 20% of players are."

There's clearly a 'if your face fits' scenario going on there.

 

[davek]

Very difficult to make any kind of statement with such a sparcity of facts. If we're looking at first jobs in management, ie for managers with no experience, then we can only really go on their qualifications. Is there any data on the qualifications held by aspiring coaches?

Facts and figures here: BBC SPORT | Football | Focus: Football's black mark

That pretty much puts the situation down to the culture in football and in particular the boardroom hiring criteria that prevails.

It's hard to argue with all of this, unless we're prepared to believe that the vast majority of black players leaving the game have no capacity for developing organisational skills. The disparity is that stark....although John Barnes, as stated, is probably the worst spokesman that black ex-footballers/coaches could wish for!

 

[brado_efc]

Racism is an utter disgrace, but I don't think it forces Black players into going into management does it???

 

[Cahill's Metatarsal]

Racism is an utter disgrace, but I don't think it forces Black players into going into management does it???

You're missing the point completely here. Barnes is saying that racism in football prevents black players from getting the same opportunities in managment that white players get

 

[sapper]

It is not just football that racism is thriving i was a fire officer at liverpool airport and reported racism a number of times to senior management ( verbaly & written ) but nothing happened, in fact one of the culprits has since been promoted to a senior rank on the fire station (along with a number of others promoted).
Did you know that in nearly 30 years not one memeber of the ethnic minorities has had a job at the airport fire station.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Facts and figures here: BBC SPORT | Football | Focus: Football's black mark

That pretty much puts the situation down to the culture in football and in particular the boardroom hiring criteria that prevails.

It's hard to argue with all of this, unless we're prepared to believe that the vast majority of black players leaving the game have no capacity for developing organisational skills. The disparity is that stark....although John Barnes, as stated, is probably the worst spokesman that black ex-footballers/coaches could wish for!

Interesting article that. A good quote by Viv Anderson I think sums things up

He describes football as "an old pals act, a closed shop where chairmen appoint managers they know and are comfortable with, and the managers choose their own backroom staff".

That's probably spot on, but does that suggest that people don't recruit because of race or because they want what's familiar? I quite agree that recruitment for management and coaching positions should be a strict meritocracy, but I'm not sure that it is down to race that this isn't the case.

I think we're missing out on a whole range of excellent coaches, of all races, simply because they weren't leading players, as though being a player qualifies you to coach or manage.

Not sure how relevant it is to the debate, but it's perhaps worth considering that the coach of the England ladies team is black. I believe she's the only female coach to hold the highest qualification so perhaps the ladies have something to show the mens game? Take away the fame and the celebrity (and indeed colour of skin) and recruit based purely on merit.

 

[GrandOldTeam]

Facts and figures here: BBC SPORT | Football | Focus: Football's black mark

That pretty much puts the situation down to the culture in football and in particular the boardroom hiring criteria that prevails.

It's hard to argue with all of this, unless we're prepared to believe that the vast majority of black players leaving the game have no capacity for developing organisational skills. The disparity is that stark....although John Barnes, as stated, is probably the worst spokesman that black ex-footballers/coaches could wish for!

To be fair, facts and figures can be too easily manipulated with regards to employment.

A classic example in this thread;

From 2007: "Less than 1% of senior coaching staff at the 92 league clubs are black - even though more than 20% of players are."

Theres a lot more Black players playing now than what there was back in the playing days of Barnes. So the 20% of current players is a massively unfair comparison.

It would also be interesting to see what they class as senior coaching staff.

 

[Whitebootman]

UK Employers are required to to keep data on applicants to ensure they they do not discriminate on the grounds of race, sex, disability etc. I wonder if the FA as the 'regulator' of football clubs has ever requested this data to investigate clubs to ensure that they are complying with UK employment law.

I suspect that the practice of managers recruiting coaches from a pool of people they have worked with in the past would not be acceptable behaviour from any other UK employer. I know it happens all the time but that does not make it right.

I think in light of the comments made by Barnes and Ince the FA should consider reviewing managerial recruitment processes at football clubs and show either that clubs are not discriminating against black applicants for management and coaching jobs, and prove it, or acknowledge there is a problem and tell us how they are going to tackle it (excuse the pun).

This is too serious an issue to just keep on doing nothing.

 

[davek]

Interesting article that. A good quote by Viv Anderson I think sums things up



That's probably spot on, but does that suggest that people don't recruit because of race or because they want what's familiar? I quite agree that recruitment for management and coaching positions should be a strict meritocracy, but I'm not sure that it is down to race that this isn't the case..

You may have a point, Bruce, or at least a point that gets away from skin colour at any rate. Look at the Irish in football. If you look at say, Celtic (and leaving aside the debate on their Scots-Irish/Irish-Scots identity for a second) it's undoubtedly the case they've historically recruited by and large from within the ranks of the Irish Catholic community - in the West of Scotland especially - way after a time when it could be argued they had to do so because they were shunned by the rest of Scottish football/society (in fact, John Barnes tried to play this ethno-religious card himself in his biography in explaining why he wasn't a success at Celtic!!). Sunderland most recently is another example. They were taken over by Irish capital and the club employed an irish manager who in turn continued the policy of Mick McCarthy to sign lots of Irish internationals).

That said, I think we'd be clutching at straws to suggest that boardrooms full of white old and middle aged men in the provinces recruit people in their own image. They dont. They recruit former players from predominantly working class backgrounds, who may or may not be up to the job. Maybe the added element of different skin colour is something they cant get passed?

 

[lordyefc]

Barnes name was brought up by somebody else (I can't remember who) a few months ago when Adams got the Pompey job. They asked why Adams was being given a second chance when Barnes didn't.

What's annoying is that there is a genuine issue here, but certain people want to play the race card to further their own cause. When Adams quit Wycombe, he went straight to Dutch football, even taking a youth caoching job I believe. He then worked as an assistant to a top experienced manager for a few years, and was at a club that needed a manager at the right time.

When Barnes left Celtic he did TV work only, and he was [Poor language removed] at it. it's all very well saying "if somebody offered me a job, I'd have taken it", but you hear the same thing in the dole queue. But like them, Barnes had no interest whatsoever in improving himself and making himself employable again.

THAT'S why Ince didn't make it.

As pointed out above, the 20% comparison is bull. Some managers are internationals who walk straight into big jobs, but most managers have to work their way up, from player to coach to assistant to manager. So the current batch of managers would have started management in the last 10 years would have retired playing about 10-20 years ago, which means they would have started playing 25-35 years ago. So in theory, the demographic of managers should be similar to the players coming through in the late 70s/early 80s, who were overwhelmingly white.

On top of that, the racism that existed through to the early 90s (at least) would have meant that few black players would have been given leadership roles (official roles like captain or unofficial ones), and these types of players wouldn't go on to become managers.



The bigger issue is why more black players aren't getting coaches badges. Look at the list of "top qualified black coaches" on that BBC link. Andy Preece? Leroy Rosenior? Only Keith Curle comes close to being a decent player, and he was average. Football managers are picked on reputation as a player as much as management ability, so it's no real surprise that that bunch can't get a job. I suspect that Les Ferdinand will have less trouble getting a job.