Questioning The Answers

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catcherintherye

Player Valuation: £80m
catcherintherye submitted a new blog post

Questioning The Answers
koemanlukaku-1024x442.jpg



“Every answer found
Begs another question”
Tim Booth, 1993


As the dust starts to settle on the Lukaku saga we will now go into the summer months with impending questions building. Much has been written about Lukaku, some positive some negative (all by the main fair on both sides) yet what is more interesting is how the club handle the Lukaku developments will shine a light on the intentions of the club going forward. Amongst Evertonian’s it is reasonable to suggest there is a positive take on Moshiri, albeit with varying degrees of caution. Off the field, increased sponsorship deals and positive noises around the new ground have fuelled this though there is a renewed desire for more concrete information and clarity around this. In defense of Moshiri, this is as much an overhang of two failed ground moves under the previous regime. Yet it is investment and retention of it’s playing staff that one senses any new regime will be judged.

romluk.jpg


Going into the summer the Lukaku situation will dominate, irrespective of whether he signs a contract or has two years left. He is not only our best player but is increasingly looking the world class centre forward that he has threatened. The wider subtext is that this summer transfer window represented a chance to make a statement of intent that to date has been lacking so far. Last summer’s window was underwhelming, while January’s was fruitful if not groundbreaking though did buy Moshiri some time until the summer to make the statement to the wider footballing world.

kenwrightmoshiri.jpg


It comes as no surprise to me that in Lukaku’s revealing statement he speaks of “doing a Manchester City”. There were several newspaper reports in the summer suggesting the same- that Everton wanted to have the impact that Manchester City had following their takeover. This can be seen from his desire for a “Marquee signing”- Witsel, Koulibaly and Mata were pursued but would not come or be sold. Any of them would have made a statement of the impact Moshiri intended on making. It might have been the start of Everton replicating what Manchester City did. In it’s absence we are still left waiting for such a statement.

The pressure from the potential sale of Lukaku makes that more difficult. With Barkley only having 12 months on a deal you would also feel if nothing is agreed within the next 3 months he too will be moved on. You would feel whoever Everton would sign in the summer, losing Lukaku, Stones and Barkley within 3 transfers windows of taking control would not represent the sort of progress Moshiri is looking for. He inherited an almost impossible situation with all 3. Two lads promised they could leave and a 3rd with only 2 years on a deal and desperately short of fitness and form. Yet this is the importance of strong leadership can and should be able to navigate.

barkleylukaku.jpg


There are two trains of thought from Lukaku’s statement. As often occurs in this situation both sides are not “wrong” and have lots of truth to them and the debate can end up with people repeating their perspective. Let me be clear, all of the below can be true at the same time:

1) Romelu Lukaku doesn’t care about Everton.
2) Everton haven’t as yet delivered on the promises of a new era.
3) Everton may need lads who look after themselves first to be successful.
4) Lukaku deserves to be playing for a side winning trophies.

Trying to develop a position that encompasses all 4 of those statements is difficult. For some Lukaku is a mercenary, for some he will be a hero demanding more from the board. I feel his intervention is fair but ill timed. I also think he needs to start winning big games for Everton more (the next two away games would be a good start!).

Lukaku in the last 3 months looks every inch the player that could play for top teams. As he turns 24 in the summer our test will simply be to prove to him we can compete for top honours. If we are serious of doing a Manchester City this needs to be done in the summer. I suspect the only way that is possible is if there is serious hidden investment in the background (in the shape of a certain director of a London club). If we haven’t got that level of backing this will be clear by August and we can begin to realistically assess where we are as a club.

lukaku.jpg


Currently in trying to do a Manchester City, what we look more like doing is a Tottenham Hotspurs. Building a core group of young British players, developing a high intensity style with a strong manager and topping that up with smart trading and astute recruitment of younger players. If that’s the way we are going then I am fine with that, but we do need to be clear about what the plan is. Demoralisation will set in amongst supporters if they are expecting one approach and get given another. This will also extend to the players, if they are made promises behind closed doors and not have them delivered upon, there will be a sense of anger. While I think the Tottenham model is a good one for Everton to follow, simply put it seems inconceivable that such a gradualist approach to developing a side will be enough to keep Lukaku.

I read a very interesting and good article from the Esk on the subject matter and he touches upon many interesting points. His position that Lukaku is pushing the agenda as part of a wider ploy from Moshiri to make a statement to the board to do more is an interesting paradigm yet I can’t go along with the specifics of the position. Would the leagues leading striker and one of the super agents be willing to put their reputation on the line as part of Machiavellian plot to send a message to Everton’s board, a message which would be far more clearly sent in a meeting with the board of Everton. My own view is Lukaku is probably using lack of recruitment as an excuse to look better but there can still be some truth to what he is saying. His bluff can be called if Everton spend big come the summer.

romwestham.jpg


Every summer is a “big summer” for Everton. In the Sky television world, every summer is a big summer for every club. What this summer presents is a unique challenge both to how we are held externally and out team. Everton have lost their best players over a pro-longed period. Rooney, Gravesen, Arteta, Peinaar, Jeffers, Fellaini and Ball have all gone. Everton ploughed on after each sale, the club and it’s ethos is bigger than any player. However it wouldn’t be unreasonable to say Lukaku is better than all of the above, outside of Rooney and Arteta he is a different caliber of player to all of the above. Crucially he’s a lad who scores 20+ a season- the sort of striker we haven’t had for 30 years. While under Moyes we build workmanlike teams that could replace cogs as they went, replacing a top draw striker will be close to impossible.

Perhaps as important is how it’s seen within the winder footballing community. Want to know why Witsel, Koulibaly or Mata didn’t come? Want to know why Schneiderlin chose us before considering West Brom? Wages is important but standing and perception are critical. Selling Lukaku would be very damaging to the increased profile we have built (and why our rivals are reveling in it) yet the damage is minimized if we are to do it on our terms. As with almost anything in life you should strive to define yourselves and not be defined by your opponents.

morgan.jpg


This is not to say we go and sell Lukaku. My preference is to keep Lukaku and give him the players around him to have us competing to win the league. If we have Manchester City levels of funding behind closed doors this should be achievable. Yet thus far, there have been too many words and not enough actions on that front. If we are still well backed- though not to the degree whereby we can outpunch our relative standing then what we need is a concrete analysis of a concrete situation. That would state that while we as a club are moving forward so too is Lukaku (his improvement keeping pace with our own). Also our improvement may not be quick enough to catch where Lukaku is at. There is no shame in acknowledging this and framing it in such a manner. There will be anger and confusion if we make out we have funding to match anyone yet we can’t keep our best players. The media will mock us if we allow that to occur.

The situation is not easy. It may have already gone too far. Can anybody begrudge Lukaku a move to Real Madrid even if we finished 4th? More importantly, is the recruitment of a top manager (who has shown he can develop talented players into consistent top draw talents) alongside a head of recruitment with a flare for identifying those rough diamonds waiting to be polished mean that any one player can de-rail our development?

As Tim Booth remarked “Every answer found, begs another question”. By September we will have more answers.
 

catcherintherye submitted a new blog post

Questioning The Answers
koemanlukaku-1024x442.jpg



“Every answer found
Begs another question”
Tim Booth, 1993


As the dust starts to settle on the Lukaku saga we will now go into the summer months with impending questions building. Much has been written about Lukaku, some positive some negative (all by the main fair on both sides) yet what is more interesting is how the club handle the Lukaku developments will shine a light on the intentions of the club going forward. Amongst Evertonian’s it is reasonable to suggest there is a positive take on Moshiri, albeit with varying degrees of caution. Off the field, increased sponsorship deals and positive noises around the new ground have fuelled this though there is a renewed desire for more concrete information and clarity around this. In defense of Moshiri, this is as much an overhang of two failed ground moves under the previous regime. Yet it is investment and retention of it’s playing staff that one senses any new regime will be judged.

romluk.jpg


Going into the summer the Lukaku situation will dominate, irrespective of whether he signs a contract or has two years left. He is not only our best player but is increasingly looking the world class centre forward that he has threatened. The wider subtext is that this summer transfer window represented a chance to make a statement of intent that to date has been lacking so far. Last summer’s window was underwhelming, while January’s was fruitful if not groundbreaking though did buy Moshiri some time until the summer to make the statement to the wider footballing world.

kenwrightmoshiri.jpg


It comes as no surprise to me that in Lukaku’s revealing statement he speaks of “doing a Manchester City”. There were several newspaper reports in the summer suggesting the same- that Everton wanted to have the impact that Manchester City had following their takeover. This can be seen from his desire for a “Marquee signing”- Witsel, Koulibaly and Mata were pursued but would not come or be sold. Any of them would have made a statement of the impact Moshiri intended on making. It might have been the start of Everton replicating what Manchester City did. In it’s absence we are still left waiting for such a statement.

The pressure from the potential sale of Lukaku makes that more difficult. With Barkley only having 12 months on a deal you would also feel if nothing is agreed within the next 3 months he too will be moved on. You would feel whoever Everton would sign in the summer, losing Lukaku, Stones and Barkley within 3 transfers windows of taking control would not represent the sort of progress Moshiri is looking for. He inherited an almost impossible situation with all 3. Two lads promised they could leave and a 3rd with only 2 years on a deal and desperately short of fitness and form. Yet this is the importance of strong leadership can and should be able to navigate.

barkleylukaku.jpg


There are two trains of thought from Lukaku’s statement. As often occurs in this situation both sides are not “wrong” and have lots of truth to them and the debate can end up with people repeating their perspective. Let me be clear, all of the below can be true at the same time:

1) Romelu Lukaku doesn’t care about Everton.
2) Everton haven’t as yet delivered on the promises of a new era.
3) Everton may need lads who look after themselves first to be successful.
4) Lukaku deserves to be playing for a side winning trophies.

Trying to develop a position that encompasses all 4 of those statements is difficult. For some Lukaku is a mercenary, for some he will be a hero demanding more from the board. I feel his intervention is fair but ill timed. I also think he needs to start winning big games for Everton more (the next two away games would be a good start!).

Lukaku in the last 3 months looks every inch the player that could play for top teams. As he turns 24 in the summer our test will simply be to prove to him we can compete for top honours. If we are serious of doing a Manchester City this needs to be done in the summer. I suspect the only way that is possible is if there is serious hidden investment in the background (in the shape of a certain director of a London club). If we haven’t got that level of backing this will be clear by August and we can begin to realistically assess where we are as a club.

lukaku.jpg


Currently in trying to do a Manchester City, what we look more like doing is a Tottenham Hotspurs. Building a core group of young British players, developing a high intensity style with a strong manager and topping that up with smart trading and astute recruitment of younger players. If that’s the way we are going then I am fine with that, but we do need to be clear about what the plan is. Demoralisation will set in amongst supporters if they are expecting one approach and get given another. This will also extend to the players, if they are made promises behind closed doors and not have them delivered upon, there will be a sense of anger. While I think the Tottenham model is a good one for Everton to follow, simply put it seems inconceivable that such a gradualist approach to developing a side will be enough to keep Lukaku.

I read a very interesting and good article from the Esk on the subject matter and he touches upon many interesting points. His position that Lukaku is pushing the agenda as part of a wider ploy from Moshiri to make a statement to the board to do more is an interesting paradigm yet I can’t go along with the specifics of the position. Would the leagues leading striker and one of the super agents be willing to put their reputation on the line as part of Machiavellian plot to send a message to Everton’s board, a message which would be far more clearly sent in a meeting with the board of Everton. My own view is Lukaku is probably using lack of recruitment as an excuse to look better but there can still be some truth to what he is saying. His bluff can be called if Everton spend big come the summer.

romwestham.jpg


Every summer is a “big summer” for Everton. In the Sky television world, every summer is a big summer for every club. What this summer presents is a unique challenge both to how we are held externally and out team. Everton have lost their best players over a pro-longed period. Rooney, Gravesen, Arteta, Peinaar, Jeffers, Fellaini and Ball have all gone. Everton ploughed on after each sale, the club and it’s ethos is bigger than any player. However it wouldn’t be unreasonable to say Lukaku is better than all of the above, outside of Rooney and Arteta he is a different caliber of player to all of the above. Crucially he’s a lad who scores 20+ a season- the sort of striker we haven’t had for 30 years. While under Moyes we build workmanlike teams that could replace cogs as they went, replacing a top draw striker will be close to impossible.

Perhaps as important is how it’s seen within the winder footballing community. Want to know why Witsel, Koulibaly or Mata didn’t come? Want to know why Schneiderlin chose us before considering West Brom? Wages is important but standing and perception are critical. Selling Lukaku would be very damaging to the increased profile we have built (and why our rivals are reveling in it) yet the damage is minimized if we are to do it on our terms. As with almost anything in life you should strive to define yourselves and not be defined by your opponents.

morgan.jpg


This is not to say we go and sell Lukaku. My preference is to keep Lukaku and give him the players around him to have us competing to win the league. If we have Manchester City levels of funding behind closed doors this should be achievable. Yet thus far, there have been too many words and not enough actions on that front. If we are still well backed- though not to the degree whereby we can outpunch our relative standing then what we need is a concrete analysis of a concrete situation. That would state that while we as a club are moving forward so too is Lukaku (his improvement keeping pace with our own). Also our improvement may not be quick enough to catch where Lukaku is at. There is no shame in acknowledging this and framing it in such a manner. There will be anger and confusion if we make out we have funding to match anyone yet we can’t keep our best players. The media will mock us if we allow that to occur.

The situation is not easy. It may have already gone too far. Can anybody begrudge Lukaku a move to Real Madrid even if we finished 4th? More importantly, is the recruitment of a top manager (who has shown he can develop talented players into consistent top draw talents) alongside a head of recruitment with a flare for identifying those rough diamonds waiting to be polished mean that any one player can de-rail our development?

As Tim Booth remarked “Every answer found, begs another question”. By September we will have more answers.
Excellent post mate. Pretty much my thoughts exactly.

I don't think the Man City route is an option for us. Either the Uefa fair play rules or the Premier Leagues own salary cap will see to that.

The Spurs route is very much a way forward for us and also one we're ideally placed for. Apart from our own youth players coming through, other top young players around Europe will look at what we've done for the development of Stones, Lukaku and Barkley, and the opportunities we are giving to the likes of Davies Holgate DCL and Lookman. They will also see how Martial, Shaw and Depay have struggled at United, at Chelsea's and City's records for bringing through their undoubted youth quality through. They will look at Everton and see us as a preferred destination at this stage in their careers.

Whether that will be sufficient to persuade Rom to stay I don't know. I reckon that what we'll do this summer is try and bring in one or two marquee signings (maybe the likes of VVD and Mertens), and then look at top youngsters like Dembele, Tielemans etc. Hopefully, Lukaku will see this as ambition and stay for at least another 12 months, preferably on the back of a new contract.;)
 
Excellent post mate. Pretty much my thoughts exactly.

I don't think the Man City route is an option for us. Either the Uefa fair play rules or the Premier Leagues own salary cap will see to that.

The Spurs route is very much a way forward for us and also one we're ideally placed for. Apart from our own youth players coming through, other top young players around Europe will look at what we've done for the development of Stones, Lukaku and Barkley, and the opportunities we are giving to the likes of Davies Holgate DCL and Lookman. They will also see how Martial, Shaw and Depay have struggled at United, at Chelsea's and City's records for bringing through their undoubted youth quality through. They will look at Everton and see us as a preferred destination at this stage in their careers.

Whether that will be sufficient to persuade Rom to stay I don't know. I reckon that what we'll do this summer is try and bring in one or two marquee signings (maybe the likes of VVD and Mertens), and then look at top youngsters like Dembele, Tielemans etc. Hopefully, Lukaku will see this as ambition and stay for at least another 12 months, preferably on the back of a new contract.;)

Thanks buddy, I got to the end and realised that it hasn't really concluded anything but rather posed some dilemmas I have no answer too currently.

The level of competency and backing we have is still open for debate. I think we will see that debate answered this summer. This will help. I think you have a lot of fans making plans on vastly varied interpretations of where we stand. At one end you have people thinking as we did under the worst days of Kenwright to others suggesting we can compete with anyone. How you view our standing certainly indicates the approach taken.

The Lukaku transfer and subsequent dealings will give us a good indication of where we stand. I'm interested to see. As long as we are moving forward I am happy. If we are more Spurs than early Roman Chelsea or City it's still good and a big move forward.

I do think the board needs updating which I know The Esk has rightly said. I also think we need a bit more clarity. I agree with you on talented younger players.

Koeman seems to specialise as Moyes did at his best with turning lads around and giving them the final kick on. Barkley, Lukaku, Claisie, Mane, VVD, Fonte, Bertrand were all very good players prior to his arrival but he helped them get to a level where they were at the top 4. With Walshs knowledge of the market feeding him more of those will be helpful.
 
Good thread mate. We need more of these 'state of the nation' debates, and you are one of the posters who can deliver the overview.

That said, I think one glaring omission was made - one hoving into view even as we speak and about to loom large in all matters concerning Everton: the new stadium.

That will govern the finances and it'll twist and turn fan perceptions on what's possible and desirable squad building wise.

I fully expect the word 'ring-fenced' to be bandied about a lot soon. It's nonsense though. They wont fight on two fronts financially speaking. The club will know they can continue putting off squad investment when they have the dream stadium move to drag across the stage as a big distraction.

Lukaku will be off in the summer regardless of what deal in the short term is cobbled together. His sale will provide the bulk of our summer spending, just as Stones' sale provided last summer's kitty.
 

Thanks buddy, I got to the end and realised that it hasn't really concluded anything but rather posed some dilemmas I have no answer too currently.

The level of competency and backing we have is still open for debate. I think we will see that debate answered this summer. This will help. I think you have a lot of fans making plans on vastly varied interpretations of where we stand. At one end you have people thinking as we did under the worst days of Kenwright to others suggesting we can compete with anyone. How you view our standing certainly indicates the approach taken.

The Lukaku transfer and subsequent dealings will give us a good indication of where we stand. I'm interested to see. As long as we are moving forward I am happy. If we are more Spurs than early Roman Chelsea or City it's still good and a big move forward.

I do think the board needs updating which I know The Esk has rightly said. I also think we need a bit more clarity. I agree with you on talented younger players.

Koeman seems to specialise as Moyes did at his best with turning lads around and giving them the final kick on. Barkley, Lukaku, Claisie, Mane, VVD, Fonte, Bertrand were all very good players prior to his arrival but he helped them get to a level where they were at the top 4. With Walshs knowledge of the market feeding him more of those will be helpful.
I think financially we'll be able to compete. I don't stand with those that want to see before they believe, but I can see why they feel like that.

We haven't really spent anything (net) so far this season but I put that down to circumstances rather than endeavour. What that does mean is that there will effectively be a couple of years TV money to put towards our summer budget. I also think (depending on who we sell) that we can raise up to another £80m from player sales. Add perhaps £70m to that if Lukaku goes. I also think Moshiri may be prepared to put his hands in his pockets if need be to help get a marquee signing over the line.

The issue I think we will have is attracting players who already see themselves at UCL level. We saw that last year, but I don't think it will be anywhere near as bad this summer. Players will have seen the improvement we have made and we will also, hopefully, have EL to offer. Whether that would be enough to attract the likes of VVD I don't know. I do think the likes of Tielemans etc are within our sights though as I think they'll see us as the next logical stepping stone in their development.

The other big variable at the moment is whether Lukaku stays (and indeed Barkley). I think it will be easier to attract a marquee signing of both of them commit.
 
Good thread mate. We need more of these 'state of the nation' debates, and you are one of the posters who can deliver the overview.

That said, I think one glaring omission was made - one hoving into view even as we speak and about to loom large in all matters concerning Everton: the new stadium.

That will govern the finances and it'll twist and turn fan perceptions on what's possible and desirable squad building wise.

I fully expect the word 'ring-fenced' to be bandied about a lot soon. It's nonsense though. They wont fight on two fronts financially speaking. The club will know they can continue putting off squad investment when they have the dream stadium move to drag across the stage as a big distraction.

Lukaku will be off in the summer regardless of what deal in the short term is cobbled together. His sale will provide the bulk of our summer spending, just as Stones' sale provided last summer's kitty.

Thanks mate, you contribute well to the threads as well. I understand they are probably not everyone's cup of tea, but I suppose there is room for them too.

I think you are right with the stadium issue. You have rightly said the Stadium will probably trump the impact any transfer business we can do. There are few things that can fundamentally alter a clubs standing,but a new stadium, particularly a top of the range new Stadium on the waterfront would be a game changer beyond the next 3 or 4 years. I think off the field has been a lot better than on the field. It's important to separate the two. Touch wood by tomorrow we will have an announcement. We are very scared by two (and before that 3) failed ground moves and naturally very anxious as a fan base.

We await to see if we can invest over 50 million net alongside funding a stadium. Thats the dream. I think we will have a good idea by the end of the window. There are not many excuses anymore. As I said, there is evidence to back up most positions on this board, but there will come a time when more solid and less pluralistic views will become apparent. This is partly due to time, but also about this summer being illuminating.

Whatever happens I just hope there's an honesty to it. If we haven't got Roman's Chelsea level of funding lets not try to make out we have to leave people disappointed. If it's steady investment at Spurs level alongside buying lower and selling higher then that works for me if focus is spent on the stadium. Lets not kid ourselves over it though. And if it’s the case, lets be clear, as you’ve said we can’t really go for too many more signing’s like Schneiderlin in areas we are strong.

Lets see. I hope We go and splash 100 million, keep Lukaku and have a new ground and watch Kopites heads fall off. We’ll see though!
 
Thanks mate, you contribute well to the threads as well. I understand they are probably not everyone's cup of tea, but I suppose there is room for them too.

I think you are right with the stadium issue. You have rightly said the Stadium will probably trump the impact any transfer business we can do. There are few things that can fundamentally alter a clubs standing,but a new stadium, particularly a top of the range new Stadium on the waterfront would be a game changer beyond the next 3 or 4 years. I think off the field has been a lot better than on the field. It's important to separate the two. Touch wood by tomorrow we will have an announcement. We are very scared by two (and before that 3) failed ground moves and naturally very anxious as a fan base.

We await to see if we can invest over 50 million net alongside funding a stadium. Thats the dream. I think we will have a good idea by the end of the window. There are not many excuses anymore. As I said, there is evidence to back up most positions on this board, but there will come a time when more solid and less pluralistic views will become apparent. This is partly due to time, but also about this summer being illuminating.

Whatever happens I just hope there's an honesty to it. If we haven't got Roman's Chelsea level of funding lets not try to make out we have to leave people disappointed. If it's steady investment at Spurs level alongside buying lower and selling higher then that works for me if focus is spent on the stadium. Lets not kid ourselves over it though. And if it’s the case, lets be clear, as you’ve said we can’t really go for too many more signing’s like Schneiderlin in areas we are strong.

Lets see. I hope We go and splash 100 million, keep Lukaku and have a new ground and watch Kopites heads fall off. We’ll see though!

I tell you what mate, if there is room for Everton to have very healthy net summer and January spending over the next few seasons then one thing is for sure: Everton FC will not be owning its "own" stadium. They'll have the bulk of the match day revenue and maybe a share of the naming rights - especially if it were part of a shirt deal - but the majority of the stake in it in terms of ownership could be through corporate investors who'd own the facility.

The way ths stadium is financed is going to be VERY VERY contentious...in my opinion.
 
Great article but there has to be a typo: no way Lukaku is better than Ball. In my opinion there might not be a player besides Dixie that is better than Alan Ball.
 


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