Our turn to fight for the NHS

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Both systems face the same problems, only one system has to unneccesarily leverage profit and provide a continued accelerated growth of profit to appease shareholders. I wonder if the fat cats will lose out or us?

I don't think either system works well, hence my comment before. We have to foster innovation. Monopolies are seldom innovative.

That is the reality we find ourselves in. Healthcare simply must become more affordable. Other places in the world can provide top notch healthcare for a fraction of what it costs here.
NHS satisfaction levels are at an all time high.

As mentioned before, it's no good comparing absolutely, you have to look relatively, and the only way to do that is to compare against international metrics, and we don't do that well internationally.

Record profits by British gas and all the other utilities, regardless of fluctuations in pricing.

Again, it's little use looking at BG in isolation. Have profit margins across the industry risen? How does BG compare to other gas suppliers? How much have wholesale gas prices risen internationally?

The green grocers are cheaper than the Supermarkets. The Supermarkets source their veg from all over the world to make the profits greater - regardless of the seasonality and the produce in question. I bought asparagus the other day from Tesco. It's only when I got home I saw that it was from Kenya. The damn stuff is in season in England now. Capitalism that mate.

And of course it's a terrible thing to let people in Kenya trade themselves out of poverty. We should protect our markets via tariffs such as CAP and then patronise these people by sending aid to them.

Under the Tory plans, GP's pay will only increase. Especially considering kick backs from private health carecompanies; inevitably they'll buy shares in these companies and it'll all become a nice cosy rich conspiracy.

There's no basis for this claim. GPs pay shouldn't increase, unless the market determines that they should. Being bullied by trade unions ala the train drivers in London recently is no way to determine pay.

Later in this little right wing diatribe you state that GP's wont overstep their Hippocratic oath. Which is it? You can't have it both sides of the debate. Right now, PATIENTS are the priority and this is almost indisputable. Profits will become the priority when we get treated like Customers. Perhaps you don't want to admit it here as it would be toxic to your argument, but we both know it.

Could you say that in a more patronising way? :lol: They were his words, not mine. He was the one that said as soon as competition comes in that GPs will become corrupt. I believe that's nonsense. Again, they were his words when he said that at the moment GPs deal directly with hospitals, hence they are the priority. In a competitive market, for someone to get my cash they have to provide a service I'm happy with. Contrast that to NI funded healthcare where they take my cash by law and I have no choice in the matter. I can see which scenario gives the customer more power here.

This argument is sound. Holisitic approaches to health care show great dividends - but its hardly germane to this issue. That's health care policy, nothing to do with proposed reforms.


That's the thing though, as things stand the govt dictates policy on health, so if they say prevention doesn't matter so much then that's how it is. One idea, one approach. With competition you'd at least hopefully get various suppliers trying things out and thus improving things iteratively.

Of course there are variations. They will increase within a market. You cannot deny that. Take a train if you don;t believe me - or if you can afford the fare.


I don't think train privatisations have worked at all. They've taken a national monopoly and replaced it with regional monopolies. A balls up if ever there was.
 

I don't think either system works well, hence my comment before. We have to foster innovation. Monopolies are seldom innovative.



As mentioned before, it's no good comparing absolutely, you have to look relatively, and the only way to do that is to compare against international metrics, and we don't do that well internationally.



Again, it's little use looking at BG in isolation. Have profit margins across the industry risen? How does BG compare to other gas suppliers? How much have wholesale gas prices risen internationally?



And of course it's a terrible thing to let people in Kenya trade themselves out of poverty. We should protect our markets via tariffs such as CAP and then patronise these people by sending aid to them.



There's no basis for this claim. GPs pay shouldn't increase, unless the market determines that they should. Being bullied by trade unions ala the train drivers in London recently is no way to determine pay.



Could you say that in a more patronising way? :lol: They were his words, not mine. He was the one that said as soon as competition comes in that GPs will become corrupt. I believe that's nonsense. Again, they were his words when he said that at the moment GPs deal directly with hospitals, hence they are the priority. In a competitive market, for someone to get my cash they have to provide a service I'm happy with. Contrast that to NI funded healthcare where they take my cash by law and I have no choice in the matter. I can see which scenario gives the customer more power here.



That's the thing though, as things stand the govt dictates policy on health, so if they say prevention doesn't matter so much then that's how it is. One idea, one approach. With competition you'd at least hopefully get various suppliers trying things out and thus improving things iteratively.



I don't think train privatisations have worked at all. They've taken a national monopoly and replaced it with regional monopolies. A balls up if ever there was.
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Get back to you in a bit Bruce. Busy now.
 
I don't think either system works well, hence my comment before. We have to foster innovation. Monopolies are seldom innovative.

Most of the innovation that goes on within the private sector is within the areas of marketing and advertising - in other words extracting the maximum amount of revenue from a customer base regardless of satisfaction. Will we have the option to go where the best services are? If so, why should we have to shop around? Why should it be caveat emperor when it comes to your health? Will it always be free at the point of entry or does this open the floodgates to charging? Isn't the real reason this is being introduced is down to the fact that the demand for private health care was very low, because people were so satisfied with the NHS.

As mentioned before, it's no good comparing absolutely, you have to look relatively, and the only way to do that is to compare against international metrics, and we don't do that well internationally.

As I keep saying, if you believe the lies that this is all about improving the NHS, then there is no point in this discussion. FACT: waiting times will increase, more people will be denied services, the health care companies will make a fortune and start to wield draconian political power towards Governments meaning we will never be able to rescue the NHS from the corporate jaws.
Given what capitalism has done to our economy recently (i.e the finance sector etc.) do we really want to let market forces govern our health. I suppose its ok because only the poor will have to use the NHS.

If we look at other health care internationally then the US model is one we want to avoid. Looks like we are lurching towards it - I wonder who will profit from that. The rich exclusively. Funny that.


Again, it's little use looking at BG in isolation. Have profit margins across the industry risen? How does BG compare to other gas suppliers? How much have wholesale gas prices risen internationally?

Yes, yes they have. Capitalism at work again. How can we shop around when the prices are fixed in collusion to benefit the minority above the majority.
It maybe the Daily Fail but the sources quoted are reputable.

And of course it's a terrible thing to let people in Kenya trade themselves out of poverty. We should protect our markets via tariffs such as CAP and then patronise these people by sending aid to them.

Jesus H. Yeah we should deffo ship veg that's in season in England all the way from Africa. Its only the planet after all. While we are at it we should leave England economically like a desert whilst paying such a crap price over in Africa they are forced to employ child labour. (google it)

There's no basis for this claim. GPs pay shouldn't increase, unless the market determines that they should. Being bullied by trade unions ala the train drivers in London recently is no way to determine pay.

It's a democratic way to determine pay. A decent wage compared to inflation. A wage you can live on and bring a family up with dignity. Good luck to them.

Could you say that in a more patronising way? :lol: They were his words, not mine. He was the one that said as soon as competition comes in that GPs will become corrupt. I believe that's nonsense. Again, they were his words when he said that at the moment GPs deal directly with hospitals, hence they are the priority. In a competitive market, for someone to get my cash they have to provide a service I'm happy with. Contrast that to NI funded healthcare where they take my cash by law and I have no choice in the matter. I can see which scenario gives the customer more power here.

So never been dissatisfied with a company in your life then? What you mean of course, is that upon dissatisfaction you shop around for a good deal. Great. Not much good after your girlfriends cancer treatment went wrong because she was on a 18 month waiting list whilst her betters pushed to the front of the queue with the private healthcare. Not much good after a botched operation is it? How about your GP deciding that a brain scan costs too much, so he prescribes you paracetamol. This is almost certain to happen. Glad to see the ideology will put profits before people. Oh and drug companies are amongst the most Machiavellian organisations in the world; absolutely nefarious. My mate is a GP and even now he says they are always trying to bombard you with free stuff. With this move, the floodgates will truly be open. Only a saint of a GP would not make a killing from these proposals. Hippocratic oath or not, this will benefit doctors and health care professionals above patients.

That's the thing though, as things stand the govt dictates policy on health, so if they say prevention doesn't matter so much then that's how it is. One idea, one approach. With competition you'd at least hopefully get various suppliers trying things out and thus improving things iteratively.

As I maintain, the approaches will be cosmetic. The NHS will be exponentially worse in five years time. The marketing divisions and the media will try to paper the cracks. WE will end up paying for it. With our lives. The fairytale that billions will be put into holistic practices, prevention, medical research and modern methods and equipment are just that. I'm sure you'll still get it on BUPA. The rest of us will be struggling with the RyanAir of NHS systems. £50 for a ambulance, £30 contusion, £100 for A and E, £200 consultancy, £20 admin, £10 charge for using a card.


I don't think train privatisations have worked at all. They've taken a national monopoly and replaced it with regional monopolies. A balls up if ever there was.
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And the reason the NHS massacres wont be the same is?

It's almost certain to be the mother of all balls up if they were introducing this solely because of altruism and to improve the service.

This is transparently to cut the budget whilst make their Tory mates filthy rich. Those MP's involved will retire and be offered posts at healthcare companies.

tens of thousands will die prematurely, or suffer immeasurably.

Frankly, it disgusts me to the pit of my stomach that anyone can defend what this is. Once pandora's ****ty box is open it would take a miracle to draw it back. Look at the crap Obama had to go through and he still has only got a watered down version of his health bill.

Another lurch towards the fascism of global corporations ruling us all.
 
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