Manchester City, The England team and Where Everton could be.

[roydo]

No doubt my perspective is different (and maybe simply wrong), but why does City (insert any other English club) need to be responsible for developing English talent? That's what I can't figure out.

It must look odd from across the pond I guess. But basically, not that long ago, the England side was seen as representing English football. A successful England team = more interest/money in the club game.

Witness Italia 90 World Cup/Gazza's tears as Exhibit A.

So a thriving club scene, churning out ace English players, would begin a virtuous cycle of English world Football domination. Or at least that was the idea with the PL.

Trouble is, the "success" of the PL/CL has meant the clubs are now all powerful, and not reliant on the England team for money, interest, or, oh yes, even more money.

So the 2 bodies, whilst being inextricably linked, now have a totally different balance/power shift, with England now being a sad irrelevance to most club owners, most club managers, some club players of a certain age, and loads of match going PL fans.

And that is all neatly shown in all its glory at Manchester City, and Chelsea a bit less.

 

[SerenityNigh]

Though when you regularly play at the top that's when you get better.

Where is the top? Stones seemed to do pretty well for developing at Barnsley.

 

[SerenityNigh]

It must look odd from across the pond I guess. But basically, not that long ago, the England side was seen as representing English football. A successful England team = more interest/money in the club game.

Witness Italia 90 World Cup/Gazza's tears as Exhibit A.

So a thriving club scene, churning out ace English players, would begin a virtuous cycle of English world Football domination. Or at least that was the idea with the PL.

Trouble is, the "success" of the PL/CL has meant the clubs are now all powerful, and not reliant on the England team for money, interest, or, oh yes, even more money.

So the 2 bodies, whilst being inextricably linked, now have a totally different balance/power shift, with England now being a sad irrelevance to most club owners, most club managers, some club players of a certain age, and loads of match going PL fans.

And that is all neatly shown in all its glory at Manchester City, and Chelsea a bit less.

They shouldn't be against each other, but it's clear that what was historically true no longer holds. It seems to me that both clubs and England need to adapt, but your national team maybe is slower to change.

Edit to add: in the past (even recent past) "ambitious" young players joined a club like Manchester United en route to the England XI. I wonder whether the next generation of "ambitious" players need to leave a play abroad to do the same.

There are still quite a few players, maybe we should call them "not ambitious," who will develop very well in the domestic league, with or without European football.

 

[ArtourxD]

Where is the top? Stones seemed to do pretty well for developing at Barnsley.

Stones is 100 times better the player now than he was at Barnsley. There's talks of him being the next England Captain. Obviously in years to come.

 

[ArtourxD]

It must look odd from across the pond I guess. But basically, not that long ago, the England side was seen as representing English football. A successful England team = more interest/money in the club game.

Most of the best Spanish players play for the best spanish clubs, or the world class clubs in other countries

Most of the best German players play for the best German clubs, or the world class clubs in other countries

It's the same with french, italian, dutch,

belgium, argentinian and brazilian are spread all over europe

 

[Khalekan]

To be honest, I couldn't give a toss about the England team and as far as I am concerned a kid from Belgium is the same to me as a kid from Basingstoke when they are playing for for us.

I love seeing local lads from Liverpool or surrounding Wool outpsts making it on the team......but other than that I take no great deal of pride in seeing lids from other parts of England in the team.

 

[Khalekan]

Stones is 100 times better the player now than he was at Barnsley. There's talks of him being the next England Captain. Obviously in years to come.

Ah, echoes of John Ebbrell all those years ago

 

[chicoazul]

England is for WOOLS.

Everton have bought their way to enough titles so c'est la vie lid.

 

[degsy]

So It's all down to there being too many foreign players in our teams, keeping 'British' players out.

Yeah those 'british' teams were really bossing everybody on the world stage when there were few if any foreigners in our league teams.

I think there might be a few other factors than just 'Johnny Foreigner' involved.

 

[Milk]

What's the best method to develop young English talent?

Do what their rugby & cricket teams do ......

*flag of convenience .. cough, cough*

 

[cduff]

Forget Man City. They are just symptomatic of the PL. So, your general question should be whether the PL is affecting England and the development of English players. You are not alone in stating that but IMHO it is not the main issue. The main issue seems to be the actual talent (or lack of) coming through. It is the whole youth system, the emphasis on size and on winning whereas it should be on technical skills, tactics and playing the right way. If English players were good enough, more of them would be in the PL. If places are available in the PL (which is understandable) players can still develop in the Championship or in European leagues like Belgium, Holland etc. That is a pathway followed by many other countries (eg Aussies, South Americans) but not England - maybe due to lack of technical skills.

 

[49ers]

If English players as a whole were technically good enough then they'd all be heading to the continent.The ones that are seem too gutless to tout themselves to clubs in Germany and Spai. Not Bayern/Barca/Madrid but Sociedad,Leverkusen,Hamburg,Levante etc.

Danny Ings is a good English striker and would thrive at Elche(their style is quite old fashioned English) or even Sociedad where Moyes quite clearly wants him. Yet Sean Dyche wants him to stay here and become Kane or Sturridge's plus one.

Sums up English football. Not all City's fault. Blame our mentality in this country.

 

[WA Toffee]

** I know it might be a long read but hear me out**

Just a thought blues,

I've been thinking about what is to blame for England's mishap at the world cup and I have come to a slight conclusion Manchester City are partly to blame. As we all know City have bought every single piece of silverware that they have won. With their team at times incomparable to any premier league squad. Though this comes at a price to the national squad because certain young English players simply don't get a chance to perform on Europe's biggest stage against the best players in the world.

City only have 3 regular starting english players, Joe Hart, Milner and Lampard who'll be leaving at the end of the season. We can all agree that their youth system is woeful so they're not going to be producing the next Ross Barkley anytime soon, unless they sign him of course. All I'm trying to say is if city were a bang average, mid table club as they were a while ago. More english players and youngsters would have been given the chance to play against europe's best. As a different team each time would have taken their place.

This is only going on the basis that the top 10 teams would have finished in the same position, baring City who would have lost more games and finished mid table. Putting injuries, points aside and clubs making the same transfers.

2009/10 Season City came 5th which meant Everton came 8th and thus missed out on a UEFA cup spot. For the next season.


We all remember how Moyes loved to play the youngsters in the UEFA cup with the likes of Seamus Coleman, Jack Rodwell, Shane Duffy etc all making their debuts in the Europa League. A key development in every players stage is game time and the amount of it. These are our english stars that missed out on that opportunity of matches who were in our squad. Hibbert, Baines, Jags, Neville, Osman, Rodwell Jose Baxter and Jermaine Beckford. I'm not saying all these players are England worthy but they missed out on a chance to prove them selves on a bigger stage. A recent example of that is the hot striker Harry Kane. Baring in mind he only scored two goals in 16 matches at loan spells at Norwich and Leicester. He proved him self in the Europa League because he was scoring for fun and now he's the top scorer in all competitions in the Premiership. Who knows what would have happened if Beckford found the scoring boots he had at Leeds in the Europa League, though he didn't get the chance to prove him self and find form by playing more regular football.

2010/11 Season City came 3rd this meant that Tottenham who came 5th missed out on the Champions League qualification.

These are the English players that missed out on playing on that stage were Kyle Walker, Michael Dawson, Danny Rose, David Bentley, Scott Parker, Tom Huddlestone, Jermaine Jenas, Aaron Lennon and Jermaine Defoe.

2011/12 Season City came 1st this meant that Newcastle who came 5th did not get the chance to play in the Champions league the following season.

The english players that missed out on that chance were James Perch, Danny Simpson, Mike Williamson Ryan Taylor, Steven Taylor and our old Dan Gosling.

2012/2013 Season It was Tottenham that missed out the champions league place and barring a few youngsters that I've never heard off and Harry Kane, though he'd have been out on loan, their squad was no different.

2013/2014 Season Finally it was Everton that missed out on a Champions League spot because we were 5th.

This means that from our current squad the English players that missed out on Champions League experience were Baines, Hibbert, Jags, John Stones, Ross Barkley, Gareth Barry. Though it wasn't just them it was our whole squad. I think Deulofeu would have thought of a 2 year loan deal if we were in the Champions League, plus the talent that would have come knocking on our door had we got that qualification. I'm sure Bobby would have pulled a few loans out of the bag and dealing out the bag for better players. John Stones, Deulofeu, Barkley, Lukaku the arrogant youngsters that live for the big stage imagine what they could have done had they been given the chance.

What I'm trying to say is it's stopping the development of English talent and certain types of player don't get given an opportunity to play at the level. It's not just that though Goodison, St James's and White Hart Lane would sell out instantly for all Champions League matches you'd be lucky to get a ticket. City have to sell their's at buy one get one free and that is embarrassing. Think also about the amount of money that you can get from a run in europe. So City also took the money from them european nights games away from the teams that could have broke into the top 4.

Manchester city are a terminal disease to English football and it's only about to get worse now Van Gaal can splash the cash on the top players. Although United are not as bad as City yet at least they're giving some of their youngsters a chance.

P.S not to mention the amount of talent that city leave to rot on their bench

Gareth Barry
Jack Rodwell
Adam Johnson
Scott Sinclair


P.P.S

I'm only saying that the english players weren't given a chance and all the players that I picked I felt had a realistic opportunity, due to squad rotation, of playing in them sort of games.

I really don't know where to start with this, so I'll just ask two questions.
1. Why Man City and not Chelsea or Arsenal as they have both been signing foreign players for a lot longer, or Man Utd, as they are pretty much the root cause (along with their G12 buddies back in the 90's)
2. Being in a group with Italy and Colombia, why would you have expected England to have done any better at the WC?

 

[paulus]

** I know it might be a long read but hear me out**

Just a thought blues,

I've been thinking about what is to blame for England's mishap at the world cup and I have come to a slight conclusion Manchester City are partly to blame. As we all know City have bought every single piece of silverware that they have won. With their team at times incomparable to any premier league squad. Though this comes at a price to the national squad because certain young English players simply don't get a chance to perform on Europe's biggest stage against the best players in the world.

City only have 3 regular starting english players, Joe Hart, Milner and Lampard who'll be leaving at the end of the season. We can all agree that their youth system is woeful so they're not going to be producing the next Ross Barkley anytime soon, unless they sign him of course. All I'm trying to say is if city were a bang average, mid table club as they were a while ago. More english players and youngsters would have been given the chance to play against europe's best. As a different team each time would have taken their place.

This is only going on the basis that the top 10 teams would have finished in the same position, baring City who would have lost more games and finished mid table. Putting injuries, points aside and clubs making the same transfers.

2009/10 Season City came 5th which meant Everton came 8th and thus missed out on a UEFA cup spot. For the next season.


We all remember how Moyes loved to play the youngsters in the UEFA cup with the likes of Seamus Coleman, Jack Rodwell, Shane Duffy etc all making their debuts in the Europa League. A key development in every players stage is game time and the amount of it. These are our english stars that missed out on that opportunity of matches who were in our squad. Hibbert, Baines, Jags, Neville, Osman, Rodwell Jose Baxter and Jermaine Beckford. I'm not saying all these players are England worthy but they missed out on a chance to prove them selves on a bigger stage. A recent example of that is the hot striker Harry Kane. Baring in mind he only scored two goals in 16 matches at loan spells at Norwich and Leicester. He proved him self in the Europa League because he was scoring for fun and now he's the top scorer in all competitions in the Premiership. Who knows what would have happened if Beckford found the scoring boots he had at Leeds in the Europa League, though he didn't get the chance to prove him self and find form by playing more regular football.

2010/11 Season City came 3rd this meant that Tottenham who came 5th missed out on the Champions League qualification.

These are the English players that missed out on playing on that stage were Kyle Walker, Michael Dawson, Danny Rose, David Bentley, Scott Parker, Tom Huddlestone, Jermaine Jenas, Aaron Lennon and Jermaine Defoe.

2011/12 Season City came 1st this meant that Newcastle who came 5th did not get the chance to play in the Champions league the following season.

The english players that missed out on that chance were James Perch, Danny Simpson, Mike Williamson Ryan Taylor, Steven Taylor and our old Dan Gosling.

2012/2013 Season It was Tottenham that missed out the champions league place and barring a few youngsters that I've never heard off and Harry Kane, though he'd have been out on loan, their squad was no different.

2013/2014 Season Finally it was Everton that missed out on a Champions League spot because we were 5th.

This means that from our current squad the English players that missed out on Champions League experience were Baines, Hibbert, Jags, John Stones, Ross Barkley, Gareth Barry. Though it wasn't just them it was our whole squad. I think Deulofeu would have thought of a 2 year loan deal if we were in the Champions League, plus the talent that would have come knocking on our door had we got that qualification. I'm sure Bobby would have pulled a few loans out of the bag and dealing out the bag for better players. John Stones, Deulofeu, Barkley, Lukaku the arrogant youngsters that live for the big stage imagine what they could have done had they been given the chance.

What I'm trying to say is it's stopping the development of English talent and certain types of player don't get given an opportunity to play at the level. It's not just that though Goodison, St James's and White Hart Lane would sell out instantly for all Champions League matches you'd be lucky to get a ticket. City have to sell their's at buy one get one free and that is embarrassing. Think also about the amount of money that you can get from a run in europe. So City also took the money from them european nights games away from the teams that could have broke into the top 4.

Manchester city are a terminal disease to English football and it's only about to get worse now Van Gaal can splash the cash on the top players. Although United are not as bad as City yet at least they're giving some of their youngsters a chance.

P.S not to mention the amount of talent that city leave to rot on their bench

Gareth Barry
Jack Rodwell
Adam Johnson
Scott Sinclair


P.P.S

I'm only saying that the english players weren't given a chance and all the players that I picked I felt had a realistic opportunity, due to squad rotation, of playing in them sort of games.

Sorry mate, but this sound like Tyler to me and hes- City spend money and rambling on about Liverpool & and rags... who spend how much this season ?Chelsea i will not mention at all. I hate that Chelsea ,United , Redshite even Spurs spending like crazy, but only City buying Titles Sky talk.You can honestly say there is no other way to get in the title chase unless let say Everton spend 200 mill- pounds in 2 season just to get respect from FA and refs . That is how is this sport make out to be now.How can sombody blame City becouse they need to buy brand and respect from League and World by spending like mad to bring players at start. This sport is [Poor language removed] up long ago by Fifa and Uefa and there is no way that we can see like before Steaua Champions of Europe or Red Star Or Videoton in Uefa Cup with there own players. You have elite and if u wanna in that game u need to pay up.They all spend and all buying that elite spot .