Malaysian airliner shot down near Ukraine-Russian border
- Thread starter tsubaki
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Oh right, so Reuters are in on the global media conspiracy... Instead of the far more reasonable explanation of a rebel seeing his arse for his elbow once he realised what he'd said and his higher ups told him to retract as he hadn't towed the party line by disavowing even the remotest possibility of them having a BUK ever.
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
That's because I dont know who did it (and neither do you, though that hasn't stopped you being "95%" certain you do).
We're in the crazy situation here where I'm being blamed for bias when its you and not me who has decided who's to blame for this incident.
It's surreal.
So you're saying that you're incapable of discussing an issue based on balance of probabilities, which is effectively what ANY discussion of this nature is about?
There is very rarely a smoking gun with things like this. You should know better - do you really think the Westminster pedophile scandal will find all the suspects? Of course not - but you use common sense and balance of probability to come to the conclusion there's been a cover up.
You can't have a definitive opinion on one matter using probability, yet disavow another subject when the end result of that balance of probability doesn't fall in the favour of what you'd like it to be.
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
Yes, there's deduction. That's fair enough. I've done it myself on this thread: I reasoned that from the actions and fascist ideology held by many of the Ukrainian regime and their paramilitaries that they would be crazy enough to target a passenger plane. But from the start I stated clearly that that was my own suspicion and nothing like the truth, because it cant be at this stage without evidence.
You, on the other hand, have stated with a massive degree of certainty that it IS the rebel forces to blame. That's the difference.
Based on what is presented. I went in to this with a blank slate - it doesn't matter to me in the slightest whether Russia or Kiev where behind this - but you didn't, so it's warped your viewpoint.
If something came up in the next hour that pointed firmly at Kiev, I'd adjust my stance. But if something came up that pointed at the rebels, you generally disregard it.
For example, that guy saying he was "misquoted" by Reuters - if that article had a Kiev government minister instead of a rebel leader making those quotes, you'd be crowing about it as proof. But because it doesn't fit your predetermined stance, you gloss over such things.
That isn't using evidence to form a valid opinion; it's pre-existent bias clouding your judgement.
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
Yes, no doubt you would, and that'd reflect your inability to just settle down and wait for hard evidence. The fact you could be swayed from your stance by one scrap of info coming forward says it all really.
There is an anti Russian agenda ever since they refused to get in line with the US's blitzkreig intentions in Syria. When Putin was the darling of the west, and lauded like a King, when he was going along with the US's 'war on terror' in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya. The Russians were the darlings when investing billions in the City of London. The turning point was Syria. And since there has been a constant stream of anti Russian propaganda.
Murdoch employs people who 'toe the party line' and mainly share his beliefs. That is why the powerful want to control the media, and/or influence the news agenda, including Putin in Russia. They want the media to promote their world view, their interests and in the process protect their riches.
The UK media will generally self censor itself if an issue 'threatens' the establishment's interests. Including protecting Saville and Smith and the paedophile ring in Westminster/Jersey/Barnes/Kincora. There are witnesses that have been abused but told to shut up and/ or threatened and/ or ignored. Or the police or some MPs have tried to take it further and been told, 'thank you but no thanks'. No further investigations, no trial. What did Tebbit say, 'people will do anything to protect the establishment'. "The Kincora scandal emerged in January 1980. However, there have been persistent allegations of a mass cover-up by the secret service, which was rumoured to be protecting high-ranking paedophiles in the military, Civil Service and politics".
There are so many barriers put in people way, who want to investigate wrong doing by MPs for instance, that they had to give way and bring out the Freedom of Information Act. But you try and get some information that sails close to the wind and see were 'freedom of the press gets you'. Barrier after barrier. Police surveillance spying on people. Read the case of Christopher Alder death in police custody.
The WMD showed how far they would lie to go to war to protect and/or promote the interests of the US/UK. If it is in the 'national interest' then journalists like MPs will lie, deceive, bend the facts and cover-up information, including self censorship, that doesn't fit in with what the government wants. The same applies to Putin as well.
Until there is an investigation into the Malayasian plane disaster, which is an open book so everyone who wishes to can look at all the information, and all the information is released, then no one knows who did it.
But what I wont be doing is joining in with the anti rebels/Russian/Putin hang 'em and flog 'em brigade because 'they are guilty'. Without a shred of evidence but because there is 'common sense and a balance of probabilities' that the rebels have a BUK and used it. The 'common sense and balance of probabilities' was used to justify the US blitzkreig in Iraq and the resultant 1 million dead.
I smell the same stench of 'war, war' disinformation bull in 2014 as there was in 2003.
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Yeah, I'm a fool for being prepared to listen and determine a stance based on information, rather than be pig-headed and come to a judgement and stick with it no matter what.
Okiedoke.
magicjuan
Player Valuation: £60m
Depends where the information is gleaned from. For balance, not just state run or sponsored or affiliated sources should be watched or read, but alternative locations too. Everyone was highlighting the importance of social media in the arab spring because it suited them times, it was live, this situation required a step back and global assessment because of the severity and implications
davek
Player Valuation: £150m
But the information is garbage. It's assertion and counter assertion, speculation and counter speculation, and you're allowing yourself to be swayed by the rhetoric attached to it rather than wait for any facts that might flow from the inquiry that's to be launched.
The easy thing to do right now is to forget process, find a convenient answer and come to a judgement; the more rational/harder thing to do is to wait for damning details from forensic findings relating to black box info, the crash team investigator's report and any satellite imagery. That's why it's a nonsense to be 95% mind made up when none of those findings are in.
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