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Lionel Messi (has he done enough pt2)

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Cheers Groucho!

I know that it is a bit of a biased source but here are Messi's international stats


He might not have dragged his team in the same way as Maradona did but that might not really be possible in the modern game those are impressive numbers.

Has Messi done enough internationally to be considered among the greats?
 
Nope.

As a club player he has an incredible honors list but as others have pointed out Landon Donovan and Tim Cahill have more World Cup goals and international silverware to boot.

Maybe that'll finally change this year? Given circumstances, I hope not, but I think he needs at least one pot, even if it's a Copa America SE
 
Garrick said:
Nope.

As a club player he has an incredible honors list but as others have pointed out Landon Donovan and Tim Cahill have more World Cup goals and international silverware to boot.

Maybe that'll finally change this year? Given circumstances, I hope not, but I think he needs at least one pot, even if it's a Copa America SE
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He has been amazing this Copa, the contrast between his performances and Ronaldo's at the Euros has been very stark.

Iirc Argentina have wanted a Copa cup for a while, wonder if they win it if it will change attitudes to him in that country at least.
 
LinekersLegs said:
Cheers Groucho!

I know that it is a bit of a biased source but here are Messi's international stats


He might not have dragged his team in the same way as Maradona did but that might not really be possible in the modern game those are impressive numbers.

Has Messi done enough internationally to be considered among the greats?
Click to expand...


Not in my opinion.

For the opposite reason I don't put Pele in the top three or four either.....he never proved it at club level.

Diego, Cruyff and Zidane did it at both club and international level so they are my three of my four top players all my time of watching football.

I will include George Best among the top echelon as he was brilliant at club level and easily the best player from these islands and beyond to grace the English game but was never going to have a chance to prove himself on the international stage at big tournaments given he played for a small country in an era before every pub team in Christendom had a decent chance of making big tournaments.

(my dad always included DiStefano, Stanley Matthews and Puskas among his all time greats but I never saw them)

Maradona is my man.....the best ever.

As for Messi.....excellent player but very fortunate to have had ten great players around him at Barcelona and that obviously aids our perception of him.

Hasn't done enough on the biggest stage of all though......those stats won't fool anyone whom watched him struggle to impose himself in the last couple of World Cups IMO.
 

LinekersLegs said:
He has been amazing this Copa, the contrast between his performances and Ronaldo's at the Euros has been very stark.

Iirc Argentina have wanted a Copa cup for a while, wonder if they win it if it will change attitudes to him in that country at least.
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Well if Portugal had a striker as good as Higuain Ronaldo wouldnt be trying to do it all himself.

But anyway, Ronaldo and Messi are utterly superb players and both will be remembered as greats of the game for within all our lifetimes.
 
Khalekan said:
Not in my opinion.

For the opposite reason I don't put Pele in the top three or four either.....he never proved it at club level.

Diego, Cruyff and Zidane did it at both club and international level so they are my three of my four top players all my time of watching football.

I will include George Best among the top echelon as he was brilliant at club level and easily the best player from these islands and beyond to grace the English game but was never going to have a chance to prove himself on the international stage at big tournaments given he played for a small country in an era before every pub team in Christendom had a decent chance of making big tournaments.

(my dad always included DiStefano, Stanley Matthews and Puskas among his all time greats but I never saw them)

Maradona is my man.....the best ever.

As for Messi.....excellent player but very fortunate to have had ten great players around him at Barcelona and that obviously aids our perception of him.

Hasn't done enough on the biggest stage of all though......those stats won't fool anyone whom watched him struggle to impose himself in the last couple of World Cups IMO.
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Pele did kind of win two Libertadores trophies with Santos, which is more than Maradona won in his club career, especially as this was a time when the best South American players played at home rather than in Europe.

It often baffles me how folks will let Best, Ronaldo et al off the hook for not 'dragging their rubbish teams' to glory, yet somehow assume Maradona was surrounded by pub players with Argentina. With a fine collection of players at Napoli he won 2 league titles and one UEFA Cup. Take the English-tinted glasses off and the cheating snide pales next to what Messi has brought to the game.

Likewise, you say Cruyff deserves inclusion for his achievements internationally, yet he lost a WC final (as has Messi), and the Dutch team failed at the European Championships during his era. He has been hugely influential on the game, without a shadow of doubt, but his actual playing achievements don't match that of Messi by a long shot.
 
Talking purely about skills, he and Diego are really even. Overall Diego gets the edge because of his epic performances vs England/Belgium in 86 and getting the WC (which Messi unfortunately couldn't do yet).

In Argentina we had a debate about Messi and the NT: Does Messi have to help his teammates or do his teammates have to help Messi? And even though both are correct, most of the people agreed more with the latter.


Khalekan said:
For the opposite reason I don't put Pele in the top three or four either.....he never proved it at club level.

Diego, Cruyff and Zidane did it at both club and international level so they are my three of my four top players all my time of watching football.
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Disagree with bolded.
 

Kurt said:
I'm sure I just read a paragraph in this thread where somebody used landon Donovan in a comparison with Messi..

baffling
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Because he has more international honors, more World Cup goals, and more (as of now, but Messi will likely pass him) international goals as well. Messi just hasn't had a great international career.

Bruce Wayne said:
Pele did kind of win two Libertadores trophies with Santos, which is more than Maradona won in his club career, especially as this was a time when the best South American players played at home rather than in Europe.

It often baffles me how folks will let Best, Ronaldo et al off the hook for not 'dragging their rubbish teams' to glory, yet somehow assume Maradona was surrounded by pub players with Argentina. With a fine collection of players at Napoli he won 2 league titles and one UEFA Cup. Take the English-tinted glasses off and the cheating snide pales next to what Messi has brought to the game.

Likewise, you say Cruyff deserves inclusion for his achievements internationally, yet he lost a WC final (as has Messi), and the Dutch team failed at the European Championships during his era. He has been hugely influential on the game, without a shadow of doubt, but his actual playing achievements don't match that of Messi by a long shot.
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Yes on Pele. Just like how some folks forget English footie existed before 1992, South American club ball used to be much more on parity with European club football. He has 3 intercontinental cups with Santos too.
 
Garrick said:
Because he has more international honors, more World Cup goals, and more (as of now, but Messi will likely pass him) international goals as well. Messi just hasn't had a great international career.



Yes on Pele. Just like how some folks forget English footie existed before 1992, South American club ball used to be much more on parity with European club football. He has 3 intercontinental cups with Santos too.
Click to expand...
21 Minutes to bite..... hmmm, not bad.
 
Bruce Wayne said:
Pele did kind of win two Libertadores trophies with Santos, which is more than Maradona won in his club career, especially as this was a time when the best South American players played at home rather than in Europe.

It often baffles me how folks will let Best, Ronaldo et al off the hook for not 'dragging their rubbish teams' to glory, yet somehow assume Maradona was surrounded by pub players with Argentina. With a fine collection of players at Napoli he won 2 league titles and one UEFA Cup. Take the English-tinted glasses off and the cheating snide pales next to what Messi has brought to the game.

Likewise, you say Cruyff deserves inclusion for his achievements internationally, yet he lost a WC final (as has Messi), and the Dutch team failed at the European Championships during his era. He has been hugely influential on the game, without a shadow of doubt, but his actual playing achievements don't match that of Messi by a long shot.
Click to expand...


Holland got to a World Cup final largely as a result of Cruyff.

Messi was a bit meh all through the tournament.

And Pele never did it in Europe.

Maradona was better than Pele.
 

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