Humanitarian crisis' in NHS hospitals, warns Red Cross

[roydo]

Just because we can, doesn't mean we should.

I think I know what you mean, and if I am right, I do agree.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Its long puzzled me why inventing ways to keep people living longer actually makes it more difficult to do so.

Who pays for it innit. State pensions are paid for out of general taxation, just as the NHS, so less working people for each pensioner means there is less money to go around. The state pension is currently the biggest spending item in the budget each year at just a shade over 20% of all spending. Indeed, £14bn more per year is currently spent on pensions than on the NHS. With pensions being triple locked, it means less money to spend on other things, such as social care.

 

[Milk]

Well, it might help if we finally crack Baumol's cost disease.

Been on Wiki as never heard of it before. Read the stuff. Think I understand. Kill the old as they are no longer productive and a drain on society seemed to be the gist ergo by doing this, productivity would rise as the NHS would need less staff.

Have I grasp the concept?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Been on Wiki as never heard of it before. Read the stuff. Think I understand. Kill the old as they are no longer productive and a drain on society seemed to be the gist ergo by doing this, productivity would rise as the NHS would need less staff.

Have I grasp the concept?

Not quite, but there are a growing number of things that can be done just as effectively (if not more so by technology). Triaging, for instance, can be done more effectively by machines today. A lot of diagnostic tasks likewise. You can also use machines to help people self-manage their care, so requiring fewer visits to the doctor. There's even impressive progress being made in robotic surgeons, although it'll be a while before we see those in operating theatres in any great number (more down to public concern than their effectiveness).

One of the major challenges in the NHS is actually implementing a lot of this stuff. It's usually painfully slow.

Something @Tubey touched on earlier was management, and there are certain parts of the service that are exceptional. World class even, but the public perception of the NHS is that it's national, and therefore you get the same quality wherever you go. It creates a huge dichotomy between centrally controlling things, which makes things impossibly unwieldy, or giving power to trusts, which inevitably leads to differing quality.

It's probably fair to say that the current method isn't working, but whilst it's a cheap shot for Corbyn et al to criticise from the sidelines, I'm not sure a better approach has really been tabled either.

 

[Milk]

lol Not quite, but there are a growing number of things that can be done just as effectively (if not more so by technology). Triaging, for instance, can be done more effectively by machines today. A lot of diagnostic tasks likewise. You can also use machines to help people self-manage their care, so requiring fewer visits to the doctor. There's even impressive progress being made in robotic surgeons, although it'll be a while before we see those in operating theatres in any great number (more down to public concern than their effectiveness).

One of the major challenges in the NHS is actually implementing a lot of this stuff. It's usually painfully slow.

Something @Tubey touched on earlier was management, and there are certain parts of the service that are exceptional. World class even, but the public perception of the NHS is that it's national, and therefore you get the same quality wherever you go. It creates a huge dichotomy between centrally controlling things, which makes things impossibly unwieldy, or giving power to trusts, which inevitably leads to differing quality.

It's probably fair to say that the current method isn't working, but whilst it's a cheap shot for Corbyn et al to criticise from the sidelines, I'm not sure a better approach has really been tabled either.

Pfft, I milk my cows with robots. Just get on with NHS ....

NHS shouldnt be used as a political football but Joe Public dont help by being fat, smokers, boozers and old.

 

[magicjuan]

Sorry Juan but you cannot deny that we are an ageing population and that medical science has found new cures where in the past you'd expire. There are simply too many demands on the NHS to service us in the manner we'd all like to see.
I really struggle to see how it can continue. Even if you can afford to "go private", all you are doing is taking front line staff away from the less fortunate
Or you pay for medical insurance.

Kill the old. Vote Looney

So, this 'idea/excuse/equation' of the ills of the NHS has been known/aware for many many years. Of course we are ageing as a population, wether that is down to solely medical advances or less dysentery from cheaper soap is counterbalanced by greater funding into the system. While tax payments by the lower classes contributes to the NHS funding the lack of taxation from greater corporations leaves a deficiency despite it being a drain on resources too.
We have obesity, diabetes and all the other ills we are constantly told of, the causes of which have their roots in the way society has us living.
The problem really isn't living longer it is the misappropriation of public funds to prop up private business with problem riddled contracts and public school backhanders, shifting NI contributions to cover tax breaks for the well off and top heavy management structures draining the resources.

You have 4 architects and 1 brickie, how good is your house going to be?

 

[Bruce Wayne]

So, this 'idea/excuse/equation' of the ills of the NHS has been known/aware for many many years. Of course we are ageing as a population, wether that is down to solely medical advances or less dysentery from cheaper soap is counterbalanced by greater funding into the system. While tax payments by the lower classes contributes to the NHS funding the lack of taxation from greater corporations leaves a deficiency despite it being a drain on resources too.
We have obesity, diabetes and all the other ills we are constantly told of, the causes of which have their roots in the way society has us living.
The problem really isn't living longer it is the misappropriation of public funds to prop up private business with problem riddled contracts and public school backhanders, shifting NI contributions to cover tax breaks for the well off and top heavy management structures draining the resources.

You have 4 architects and 1 brickie, how good is your house going to be?

Corporate tax revenue has remained largely the same over the years, even as the tax rate has fallen.

 

[magicjuan]

Corporate tax revenue has remained largely the same over the years, even as the tax rate has fallen.

And does that take into account increases in turnover and profitability? Or is it just a contributory figure as a percentage of a toral revenue?

 

[Ashtonian]

One little piece of information not mentioned in all of this with the whole a&e crisis.

The wife had the novo virus the other week. We knew it was some sort of stomach illness with the symptoms but she wanted me to ring 111 just to make sure. Because she mentioned there was a little bit of blood in her sick, they sent an ambulance and she had to wait in a&e for 3 hours.

Point is, the blood came from her throat ad she was being sick. I knew that and so did she. But they sent an ambulance anyway and took her to hospital. So all in all it was another person in emergency that didn't need to be there and another ambulance call out that didn't need to be made.

The system doesn't work properly in that case, the 111 service need to stop sending ambulances out to minor cases and perhaps just advise local areas to go to so this sort of treatment can be made in community from walk in centres or whatnot rather than send another to the local a&e.

This is also a political debate but my feelings are too strong on that one to be arsed getting worked up typing it out

 

[COYBL25]

One little piece of information not mentioned in all of this with the whole a&e crisis.

The wife had the novo virus the other week. We knew it was some sort of stomach illness with the symptoms but she wanted me to ring 111 just to make sure. Because she mentioned there was a little bit of blood in her sick, they sent an ambulance and she had to wait in a&e for 3 hours.

Point is, the blood came from her throat ad she was being sick. I knew that and so did she. But they sent an ambulance anyway and took her to hospital. So all in all it was another person in emergency that didn't need to be there and another ambulance call out that didn't need to be made.

The system doesn't work properly in that case, the 111 service need to stop sending ambulances out to minor cases and perhaps just advise local areas to go to so this sort of treatment can be made in community from walk in centres or whatnot rather than send another to the local a&e.

This is also a political debate but my feelings are too strong on that one to be arsed getting worked up typing it out

Unfortunately in today's litigious society Ash, they have opted to cover their arse by sending an ambo due to the presence of the blood, which could be suggestive of other more serious things. They'd rather waste time and money by sending her to hosy, than getting it wrong and subsequently being sued.

It's sad mate, but that's the way it is now x

 

[Tubey]

One little piece of information not mentioned in all of this with the whole a&e crisis.

The wife had the novo virus the other week. We knew it was some sort of stomach illness with the symptoms but she wanted me to ring 111 just to make sure. Because she mentioned there was a little bit of blood in her sick, they sent an ambulance and she had to wait in a&e for 3 hours.

Point is, the blood came from her throat ad she was being sick. I knew that and so did she. But they sent an ambulance anyway and took her to hospital. So all in all it was another person in emergency that didn't need to be there and another ambulance call out that didn't need to be made.

The system doesn't work properly in that case, the 111 service need to stop sending ambulances out to minor cases and perhaps just advise local areas to go to so this sort of treatment can be made in community from walk in centres or whatnot rather than send another to the local a&e.

This is also a political debate but my feelings are too strong on that one to be arsed getting worked up typing it out

They were 100% correct to order the ambulance in that scenario. Indeed, I'd have been appalled if they hadn't.

 

[Ashtonian]

They were 100% correct to order the ambulance in that scenario. Indeed, I'd have been appalled if they hadn't.

But even we knew why there was blood, Mrs ash even told them on the phone what the blood probably was.

I'm all for being overly cautious in anything health related, but then there is common sense here which has a bigger picture. For example, a patient with the novo virus then turns up in a and e potentially spreading it about which then makes helping anyone there even harder if they start catching said virus.

See what I mean, one little thing and many knock on effects. A care in the community option rather than an ambulance and accident and emergency would have been far more effective.

 

[tsubaki]

If anyone didn't think the NHS was in crisis before Hunt's appearance in the Commons today, they surely must think its in crisis now:

"However, looking to the future, it is clear that we need to have an honest discussion with the public about the purpose of A&E departments. There is nowhere outside the UK that commits to all patients that we will sort out any health need within four hours. Only four other countries, New Zealand, Sweden, Australia and Canada, have similar national standards which are generally less stringent than ours.

This government is committed to maintaining and delivering that vital four-hour commitment to patients. But since it was announced in 2000 there are nearly 9m more visits to our A&Es, up to 30% of whom NHS England estimate do not need to be there. And the tide is continuing to rise.

So, if we are to protect our four-hour standard, we need to be clear it is a promise to sort out all urgent health problems within four hours, but not all health problems, however minor.

As Prof Keith Willett, NHS England’s medical director for acute care has said, no country in the world has a standard for all health problems, however small, and if we are to protect services for the most vulnerable, nor can we.

So NHS England and NHS Improvement will continue to explore ways to ensure that at least some of the patients who do not need to be in our A&Es can be given good alternative options, building on progress under way with the streaming policy in the NHS England A&E plan. This way we will be able to improve the patient experience for those with more minor conditions who are currently not seen within four hours, as well as protect the four-hour promise for those who actually need it.

A bell-destroying cretin, him.