Full backs (cont'd from Martinez thread)

[bluebrotha77]

Yea, they got someone else in ( on loan I think ) and he's struggled to get a starting place since he's been fit.

Ya think it was some lad from middlesbrough

 

[catcherintherye]

TBH mate, I dont think anyone owns either of those two FB places. We have Coleman and Baines and it should be a no brainer, but I dont think we've seen great quality from them consistently for a couple of seasons. Browning and Galloway filled in for them competently in their absence and I dont think we were weakened. Obviously Galloway is further on than Browning like. Garbutt: he'd have to have added something else to his game at Fulham to nose his way into the team. Yes, delivery from dead balls are good. He's athletic and can get up and down the line. I just dont think he's a good enough defender and I dont think he's all that in terms of passing.

The CB situation: still in flux I';m afraid. I thought we'd gotten on top of this but there's some serious errors creeping in. Jagielka is not the simple answer either. Maybe Galloway is needed in there. Personally, I'd like to have seen us getting hold of Dann in the summer or similar. I like seeing the ball played out from the back but I think a blend of a dominant stopper and a ball playing CB is the right way to progress us right now. Funes Mori can clear his lines in that fashion at times. But I dont think he has the savvy for our PL game at the moment.

Overwhelmingly though the GK situation is THE critical issue in defence. Get a quality gk in and our problems are halved overnight. It's that simple.

A fair analysis. I don't think we were as good as people made out with Galloway/Browning. The game that hits me was the derby. If we'd have had Coleman we would have won. By not having Coleman Moreno just man marked Deulofeu and doubled up with Bambi to prevent the service to Lukaku. Browning never overlapped, had we have had Coleman we'd had exploited that situation far more.

Garbutt may not be the best defensively, I could play devils advocate and said being good defensively has never seemed to be a pre-requisite to play for an Everton defender currently! Joking aside I think the loan experience will do him good. I think he's better than people give him credit for and I prefer him to Galloway currently.

CB we are really struggling. I agree 100% re Dann. I remember saying this in the summer and people laughed at me. He is a real leader, yells at people, organises and dominates the ball aerially. Fumes Mori has done well but isn't as commanding (though may grow to be). We were linked with a 6 ft 4 Dane recently, can't remember his name, I hope we can get a deal like that done.

As for Howard he is like an albatross around the head of Martinez. I really worry that he will drag Martinez down. It's difficult for a manager when you make your bed with a player like he has with Howard. But every mistake Martinez gets punished twice for, once for the cock up and twice for the fact he has backed him publically. And there are lots of mistakes.

If Stones goes in January (if Chelsea panic and doing something daft like offer 60 million) we should be able to go and get 2 centre halves in that I am discussing and a goalkeeper of the quality of Butland. People may not like that, Martinez may not think we are as pretty playing out of the back, but we'd be more effective. We can't keep having to score 3 or 4 goals a game to win them.

 

[catcherintherye]

@davek @bluestevon @Warrington Blue

I put the long post about the left back options in the Martinez thread due to davek and bluestevon discussing Martinez's choice to drop Galloway for Baines.

I think our left back options are excellent at the moment a shortened version of that post:

Galloway: Had 2 games at the end of last season which prepared him well for coming in for Baines in 15 games. I would like to see him at CB in the FA Cup and get a few games at CB before the season is out so in the same way we saw he was good enough last season to step into LB we will know if he is ready to become 4th choice centre back next season OR go on loan to a decent team who will know he is close to our first 11.

Garbutt: Hopefully he does well at Fulham this season and his defensive game improves as he looks great going forward and is Hinchcliffe-esque with his set pieces. I thought he looked at least on a par with Luke Shaw last season and would love it if he could dislodge Baines as then he would be some player.

Baines: Coming back from his long layoff and will take some time to get back to his old self. I think having Kone ahead of him is not going to help his natural game so either Cleverley should play there or we sign another player in the window.

Baines is now 31 and i imagine has 3 more years at this level ahead of him. Will Garbutt wait that long to become 1st choice, i dont think so. Also what happens if Garbutt dislodges Baines, weve then got a top notch left back whose of the age where we wouldnt get a good transfer fee but at the same time would be on large wages. I suppose it could be a good problem to solve!



Coleman: Looked great the other week and i think his relationship on the right with Deulofeu is fantastic. I think (as with the LB position) if we sign a LM/LW player then Deulofeu wouldnt be double marked and so this should also give Coleman more space as well for his marauding runs.

The only position (other than CF) where we have no real backup is RB. I wonder what will happen here as Pennington and Browning seem to be Colemans backup but, like Galloway are actually centre backs....also Holgate having been signed for actual £££ id expect to push his way through here as Martinez seems to want his centre backs to start as full backs...

Otherwise, Kenny seems to be the only "natural" right back we have coming through. However hes also been a centre back and defensive midfielder so will he come through at right back and is he going to fulfill the promise shown with England u19s a couple of years ago?

I know @Warrington Blue mentioned Sam Byram in the other thread but he doesnt even have any England youth caps which is strange for a first choice player let alone Leeds' best player. You said he could potentially become "world class" but could he even dislodge Coleman who is possibly the best right back in the league, and would he even want to come in as second choice as , like Garbutt probably rates himself highly enough to be a first choice somewhere....?


The full back options are very interesting as we will not only start seeing competition for Baines and Coleman for the first time but also if Martinez elects to use more defensive full backs/centre backs in certain games...if he is modelling us on Barca then its odd to play centre backs at full-back.

A good post. I'd only add I think Byram is a very talented player. He plays right hand side midfield for Leeds. If we could let go of Naismith/Mirallas he would be a smart signing and may allow us to use Deulofeu in a free role more.

 

[davek]

A fair analysis. I don't think we were as good as people made out with Galloway/Browning. The game that hits me was the derby. If we'd have had Coleman we would have won. By not having Coleman Moreno just man marked Deulofeu and doubled up with Bambi to prevent the service to Lukaku. Browning never overlapped, had we have had Coleman we'd had exploited that situation far more.

Garbutt may not be the best defensively, I could play devils advocate and said being good defensively has never seemed to be a pre-requisite to play for an Everton defender currently! Joking aside I think the loan experience will do him good. I think he's better than people give him credit for and I prefer him to Galloway currently.

CB we are really struggling. I agree 100% re Dann. I remember saying this in the summer and people laughed at me. He is a real leader, yells at people, organises and dominates the ball aerially. Fumes Mori has done well but isn't as commanding (though may grow to be). We were linked with a 6 ft 4 Dane recently, can't remember his name, I hope we can get a deal like that done.

As for Howard he is like an albatross around the head of Martinez. I really worry that he will drag Martinez down. It's difficult for a manager when you make your bed with a player like he has with Howard. But every mistake Martinez gets punished twice for, once for the cock up and twice for the fact he has backed him publically. And there are lots of mistakes.

If Stones goes in January (if Chelsea panic and doing something daft like offer 60 million) we should be able to go and get 2 centre halves in that I am discussing and a goalkeeper of the quality of Butland. People may not like that, Martinez may not think we are as pretty playing out of the back, but we'd be more effective. We can't keep having to score 3 or 4 goals a game to win them.

I cant remember Coleman having a great run out against Liverpool, tbh. If he'd have played they'd have targeted him with attention.

CB wise we really are struggling with inexperience - that coupled with a GK who is all at sea is not a great combination. I wouldn't be against losing Stones in the next couple of windows as long as the cash was well spent. Howard is the main consideration though. Preferably he'd leave in January but it cant go on beyond the end of this season.

 

[Zatara]

Its interesting that neither Coleman or Baines are Martinez signings and so we dont know if he is setting up the team to play to their strengths or fitting in two quality players who dont really fit what he wants from a player there.

It just shows what a job Martinez has on his hands...

LW -- This will have a clear affect on Baines. At the moment Kone is so far up ahead of him that he has to be wary of being caught 2 on 1. Someone like Cleverley who is more balanced would enable Baines to get ahead more...

However will Martinez sign a Kone upgrade, a left winger or a left midfield playmaker....each of these will affect Baines.

CM -- Martinez has no recognised central midfielder and is playing McCarthy there. With Barry he doesnt have the pace to cover Baines and so i think when McCarthy moves back to DM and a new CM is signed we will see how/if the plan is to cover for Coleman and Baines...

Its interesting that this season we have seen Galloway and Browning at full back. Two totally defensive players who are basically out of position centre backs...could it be that Martinez would prefer this type of full back then allow the wingers to stay up the pitch (something mentioned before)...

If hes following the Barca model though they have used very attacking full backs.

I think it shows that rather than focusing solely on results and also top quality signings its also important to see that the different parts of the side affect the whole system...whoever we sign at LW and CM will affect how the full backs play.

I think we will see some changes in how the full backs are setup soon, perhaps by next season...an indicator for me would be if Garbutt is loaned out again because that would mean he favours Galloway at left back which could highlight that Baines isnt the ideal player he wants there....on the flip side a signing such as Byram would indicate that he does want attacking full backs....

All very interesting.

 

[Zatara]

I think he would compete with Coleman but if he were to be on the right of midfield it again puts a question mark on Lennon signing.

A good post. I'd only add I think Byram is a very talented player. He plays right hand side midfield for Leeds. If we could let go of Naismith/Mirallas he would be a smart signing and may allow us to use Deulofeu in a free role more.

 

[DualityNSNO]

Coleman's the best right back in the league? When did that happen?

 

[degsy]

TBH mate, I dont think anyone owns either of those two FB places. We have Coleman and Baines and it should be a no brainer, but I dont think we've seen great quality from them consistently for a couple of seasons. Browning and Galloway filled in for them competently in their absence and I dont think we were weakened. Obviously Galloway is further on than Browning like. Garbutt: he'd have to have added something else to his game at Fulham to nose his way into the team. Yes, delivery from dead balls are good. He's athletic and can get up and down the line. I just dont think he's a good enough defender and I dont think he's all that in terms of passing.

The CB situation: still in flux I';m afraid. I thought we'd gotten on top of this but there's some serious errors creeping in. Jagielka is not the simple answer either. Maybe Galloway is needed in there. Personally, I'd like to have seen us getting hold of Dann in the summer or similar. I like seeing the ball played out from the back but I think a blend of a dominant stopper and a ball playing CB is the right way to progress us right now. Funes Mori can clear his lines in that fashion at times. But I dont think he has the savvy for our PL game at the moment.

Overwhelmingly though the GK situation is THE critical issue in defence. Get a quality gk in and our problems are halved overnight. It's that simple.

It will help matters. So will attacking the ball at set pieces, instead of marking the spaces.