British & Irish Lions Tour to New Zealand 2017

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Milk

Milk

Udderly delicious
As a Welshman, I am keeping out of the Rugby thread after Saturday when that useless lump Cuthbert handed England a win (Boo) but am really enjoying the Six Nations this year with every British & Irish player potentially playing for a seat on the plane to NZ in May.

After every match my starting XV changes but (assuming all are fit), if the first match was tomorrow, this would be my team:

Full Back - Stuart Hogg, Scotland
11 - Liam Williams, Wales
13 - Ben Te'o, England
12 - Owen Farrell, England
14 - Elliot Daley, England
10 - Dan Biggar, Wales
9 - Conor Murray, Ireland
1- Joe Marler, England
2- Jamie George, England
3- Tahig Furhong, Ireland
4- Mario Itoje/Joe Launchberry, England
5- Alun Wyn Jones, Wales (C)
6 - CJ Stander, Ireland
7- Sam Warburton, Wales
8- Ross Moriarty/ Taulepe Fauletau, Wales

Replacements (4 backs, 4 forwards):

Backs - Huw Jones, Scotland, Keith Earls (Ireland), Gerrard Payne (Ireland) & George Ford (England)
Forwards - Itoje/Launchberry, Moriarty/Fauletau, Ken Owens (Wales) & Dan Cole (England)

Of course, I expect to one or both of the Vinupola brothers to be in contention and there is bound to be many changes before the first game of the tour on 3rd June.

Match Dates
Game 1 – Saturday 3rd June 2017 Provincial Union Team Toll Stadium, Whangarei
Game 2 – Wednesday 7th June 2017 Blues Eden Park Auckland
Game 3 – Saturday 10th June 2017 Crusaders AMI Stadium Christchurch
Game 4 – Tuesday 13th June 2017 Highlanders Forsyth Barr Stadium, Dunedin
Game 5 – Saturday 17th June 2017 Maori All Blacks Rotorua International Stadium
Game 6 – Tuesday 20th June 2017 Chiefs FMG Stadium Waikato, Hamilton
Game 7 – Saturday 24th June 2017 All Blacks Eden Park Auckland
Game 8 – Tuesday 27th June 2017 Hurricanes Westpac Stadium Wellington
Game 9 – Saturday 1st July 2017 All Blacks Westpac Stadium Wellington
Game 10 – Saturday 8th July 2017 All Blacks Eden Park Auckland
 

Seathestars said:
Tough old game rugby. I don't watch it much, the odd international. But those rugby players make footballers look like big girls blouses.
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I've never played rugby at all, but my eldest lad plays both footy and rugby union.

He's been playing rugby for for five years now and it's taken me that long to understand the rules.

I absolutely love watching him play it and much prefer it now to his footy.

Injuries so far this season in his team : 2 x broken collar bones and one broken nose.
 

Milk said:
As a Welshman, I am keeping out of the Rugby thread after Saturday when that useless lump Cuthbert handed England a win (Boo) but am really enjoying the Six Nations this year with every British & Irish player potentially playing for a seat on the plane to NZ in May.
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Of all the Welsh players at fault in that passage of play, Cuthbert was the LEAST culpable. He was left with a lot to do because someone didn't guard effectively to prevent Sinckler charging in to block the clearing kick, someone didn't then kick downfield effectively and a couple more someones didn't chase the kick effectively. After all those mistakes, Cuthbert was left in a position where 99% of international wingers would have failed to stop the try. Daly was at full speed when he took the ball, the pass was extremely well-executed (significantly better than Farrell normally delivers) and Farrell was running a line that was going to beat the covering defence, so Cuthbert had to hold his ground for longer than he wanted.

Milk said:
After every match my starting XV changes but (assuming all are fit), if the first match was tomorrow, this would be my team:

Full Back - Stuart Hogg, Scotland - Excellent in attack, utter liability defensively. All three alternatives are better choices.
11 - Liam Williams, Wales - Can't argue with that.
13 - Ben Te'o, England - Not even a starter for England. Joseph (Eng) and Davies (Wal) both better.
12 - Owen Farrell, England - England play a totally different style to the rest of the 6N. If Farrell is your 12 then it demands specific selections in the pack and at halfback. Henshaw (Ire) is the choice if you don't want to go with the pack Farrell requires
14 - Elliot Daley, England - Jack Nowell (Eng). Daly is an 11, not a 14. Watson (Eng) possibly an option.
10 - Dan Biggar, Wales - If Biggar is your 10, why pick Farrell at 12? - None of the eligible 10s are playing well ATM. Sexton (Ire) streets ahead of all of them
9 - Conor Murray, Ireland - Agree. Laidlaw is pushing him hard though
1- Joe Marler, England - McGrath and Healy (both Ire) both pushing him hard. If he fully regains fitness, Healy is the best of the three.
2- Jamie George, England - Rory Best was out with an upset stomach, nothing more.
3- Tahig Furhong, Ireland - Cole?
4- Mario Itoje/Joe Launchberry, England - Kruis (Eng), if fit, is better than both of them
5- Alun Wyn Jones, Wales (C) - 6N full of good second rows at the moment, only the Irish lads not in contention.
6 - CJ Stander, Ireland - Lots of choice here. Peter O'Mahony (Ire), O'Brien (Ire), Haskell (Eng), Itoje (Eng). Stander is great c
7- Sam Warburton, Wales - Nope. Not even the best 7 available to Wales. This is where your selection of Farrell at 12 matters - you have to take Haskell or Sean O'Brien as your 7 if your 12 is not a ball-carrying threat.
8- Ross Moriarty/ Taulepe Fauletau, Wales - I liked Moriarty's performance against England and he's better than Faletau, but I'm not getting carried away with him yet. Stander plays 8 for Munster... he's even better there than he is as a 6. Looking at Ireland's back row, if O'Mahony was fit he'd be at 6, Stander would be the 8 and Heaslip would be dropped.
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So for me:

15: Halfpenny
14: Nowell
13: Joseph
12: Henshaw ( if Farrell instead then need to change Itoje as the 6)
11: Williams
10: Sexton
9: Murray

1: Healy
2: Best
3: Cole
4: Kruis
5: AWJ
6: Itoje (If Farrell comes in at 12 then Haskell comes in at 6)
7: O'Brien
8: Stander
 
Be surprised is Sean O Brien isn't on the plane - Gatland is a big fan and had a massive impact on the last tour.

All comes down to injuries of course so all very speculative. A fit Sexton starts at 10 I would have thought.

Hopefully everyone is there on merit though as won't be able to carry any passengers against the AB's.

EDIT Conor Murray was superb in Chicago against the AB's so could well be in prime position to start at 9. Something to be said for Irish players who broke the hoodoo over them.
 
Tree13 said:
Of all the Welsh players at fault in that passage of play, Cuthbert was the LEAST culpable. He was left with a lot to do because someone didn't guard effectively to prevent Sinckler charging in to block the clearing kick, someone didn't then kick downfield effectively and a couple more someones didn't chase the kick effectively. After all those mistakes, Cuthbert was left in a position where 99% of international wingers would have failed to stop the try. Daly was at full speed when he took the ball, the pass was extremely well-executed (significantly better than Farrell normally delivers) and Farrell was running a line that was going to beat the covering defence, so Cuthbert had to hold his ground for longer than he wanted.


So for me:

15: Halfpenny
14: Nowell
13: Joseph
12: Henshaw ( if Farrell instead then need to change Itoje as the 6)
11: Williams
10: Sexton
9: Murray

1: Healy
2: Best
3: Cole
4: Kruis
5: AWJ
6: Itoje (If Farrell comes in at 12 then Haskell comes in at 6)
7: O'Brien
8: Stander
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Cuthbert lost the ball when we were in the English 22 and from there England attacked so yes the plonker was culpable and as any schoolboy knows, tackle low and not high like he did on Daly (who was beating him for pace in any case as Cuthbert hadn't moved across as soon as Ford threw the pass to Farrell).

As for the team, we all have our opinions although I see a very heavy Irish bias in yours! Stander is NOT a No8 and you cannot really judge a player against the Italians.
 
Milk said:
Cuthbert lost the ball when we were in the English 22 and from there England attacked so yes the plonker was culpable and as any schoolboy knows, tackle low and not high like he did on Daly (who was beating him for pace in any case as Cuthbert hadn't moved across as soon as Ford threw the pass to Farrell).
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http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/sir-clive-woodward-defends-alex-12595668

Milk said:
As for the team, we all have our opinions although I see a very heavy Irish bias in yours! Stander is NOT a No8 and you cannot really judge a player against the Italians.
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Stander was Ireland's best player in the last 6N, their standout player in the Autumn internationals, has captained Munster 18 times in the absence of Peter O'Mahony, has been Munster's Player of the year for the last two seasons, been selected to the Pro-12 Dream team for the last two seasons and has played as an 8 for Munster. I'm not judging him on his performance against Italy but will admit that being a Munster fan means I probably watch him a fair bit more than most.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CJ_Stander
I'm no more biased towards Ireland than you appear to be towards Wales :cheers:. In your team, why does Warburton get the nod at 7 ahead of Tipuric? Tip is by some comfortable margin the better 7 of the two. I agreed with you re Liam Williams and AWJ, and I'd have Halfpenny (Welsh) and Davies (Welsh) in ahead of Hogg (Scot) and Te'o (Eng) in your team. Most neutrals would pick Sexton ahead of Biggar, and the question of Moriarty at 8 is academic if Billy Vunipola comes back from injury in time.
 

Tree13 said:
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/sir-clive-woodward-defends-alex-12595668


Stander was Ireland's best player in the last 6N, their standout player in the Autumn internationals, has captained Munster 18 times in the absence of Peter O'Mahony, has been Munster's Player of the year for the last two seasons, been selected to the Pro-12 Dream team for the last two seasons and has played as an 8 for Munster. I'm not judging him on his performance against Italy but will admit that being a Munster fan means I probably watch him a fair bit more than most.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CJ_Stander
I'm no more biased towards Ireland than you appear to be towards Wales :cheers:. In your team, why does Warburton get the nod at 7 ahead of Tipuric? Tip is by some comfortable margin the better 7 of the two. I agreed with you re Liam Williams and AWJ, and I'd have Halfpenny (Welsh) and Davies (Welsh) in ahead of Hogg (Scot) and Te'o (Eng) in your team. Most neutrals would pick Sexton ahead of Biggar, and the question of Moriarty at 8 is academic if Billy Vunipola comes back from injury in time.
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Your Cuthbert source document is Wales Online so there will be a bit of sympathy there. Not so in the Times who have pulled Cuthbert a new one (albeit tinged with the fact that he shouldn't have been put in the firing line in the first place).

As for Stander, and leaving aside the fact he is South African & flying an Irish flag of convenience, he is best at No6.
Warburton is back to his best now he is no longer captain and is right up there when on form in World terms as a No7 whilst Tipuric is ideal as an impact sub when the game is opening up.
Hogg provides the X factor especially in attack which Halfpenny doesn't do anymore and Te'o was a left field pick of mine based on the fact he's NZ anyway (and I wouldn't have him wearing English white but thems the rules) but he has impressed me with his two cameos to date although I am happy to put either Henshall or Payne in at 13.
I would always put Faleutau ahead of big Billy as he is a far better No8 but Billy to come on if needed
Both Biggar & Sexton will go (along with Ford) but who is the No10 on the day is a tough call - something that Gatland is not afraid of doing.

All I hope is that it is a competitive series and that the Lions win at least one test. It would be a crying shame if future tours no longer take place
 
This is great!
They should put all the terrible sport on in the middle of the night when nobody will watch it anyway.

Can we get all the Tennis and Golf on at 3am on UKGold as well?
 
We should have a great team but Gatlandball will ensure an embarassing hiding in the tests with mentally weak Welsh men galore getting the nod above their far superior English and Irish compatriots.

Rory Best for captain is such an obvious choice. The man beat all 3 top southern hemisphere teams inside 6 months. Wales haven't beat them 3 in the last 6 years.

I'd have something like....

Mcgrath
Best
Furlong
AWJ
Itoje
Stander
SOB
Billy Vunipola
Murray
Farrell
Henshaw
Joseph
Liam Williams
Nowell
Hogg (who is world class)

Sexton is better 10 than Farrell. He's just broken, permanently I reckon too. Jackson ain't even that far off his level either anymore.
 
Milk said:
As a Welshman, I am keeping out of the Rugby thread after Saturday when that useless lump Cuthbert handed England a win (Boo) but am really enjoying the Six Nations this year with every British & Irish player potentially playing for a seat on the plane to NZ in May.

After every match my starting XV changes but (assuming all are fit), if the first match was tomorrow, this would be my team:

Full Back - Stuart Hogg, Scotland
11 - Liam Williams, Wales
13 - Ben Te'o, England
12 - Owen Farrell, England
14 - Elliot Daley, England
10 - Dan Biggar, Wales
9 - Conor Murray, Ireland
1- Joe Marler, England
2- Jamie George, England
3- Tahig Furhong, Ireland
4- Mario Itoje/Joe Launchberry, England
5- Alun Wyn Jones, Wales (C)
6 - CJ Stander, Ireland
7- Sam Warburton, Wales
8- Ross Moriarty/ Taulepe Fauletau, Wales

Replacements (4 backs, 4 forwards):

Backs - Huw Jones, Scotland, Keith Earls (Ireland), Gerrard Payne (Ireland) & George Ford (England)
Forwards - Itoje/Launchberry, Moriarty/Fauletau, Ken Owens (Wales) & Dan Cole (England)

Of course, I expect to one or both of the Vinupola brothers to be in contention and there is bound to be many changes before the first game of the tour on 3rd June.

Match Dates
Game 1 – Saturday 3rd June 2017 Provincial Union Team Toll Stadium, Whangarei
Game 2 – Wednesday 7th June 2017 Blues Eden Park Auckland
Game 3 – Saturday 10th June 2017 Crusaders AMI Stadium Christchurch
Game 4 – Tuesday 13th June 2017 Highlanders Forsyth Barr Stadium, Dunedin
Game 5 – Saturday 17th June 2017 Maori All Blacks Rotorua International Stadium
Game 6 – Tuesday 20th June 2017 Chiefs FMG Stadium Waikato, Hamilton
Game 7 – Saturday 24th June 2017 All Blacks Eden Park Auckland
Game 8 – Tuesday 27th June 2017 Hurricanes Westpac Stadium Wellington
Game 9 – Saturday 1st July 2017 All Blacks Westpac Stadium Wellington
Game 10 – Saturday 8th July 2017 All Blacks Eden Park Auckland
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Dan Biggar at 10? Are you high/Warren Gatland lol
 
Milk said:
Your Cuthbert source document is Wales Online so there will be a bit of sympathy there. Not so in the Times who have pulled Cuthbert a new one (albeit tinged with the fact that he shouldn't have been put in the firing line in the first place).
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I'll take Clive Woodward's analysis (upon which the Wales Online article is built) over almost anyone else's, and you can hardly accuse him of a pro-Welsh bias. I haven't read the Times article - link?

Milk said:
As for Stander, and leaving aside the fact he is South African & flying an Irish flag of convenience, he is best at No6.
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Please take my word for it, as a Munster fan who's watched Stander play both positions: he's even better as an 8. The whole flag of convenience thing, if you feel strongly about it, would apply to a number of other players.... like Te'o for instance, who you are happy enough to select. The beauty of the matter is that the back row is one area where there are several viable options AND some of them can play in more than one spot. Stander, Haskell and Sean O'Brien all fit this description, as does Warburton.

Milk said:
Warburton is back to his best now he is no longer captain and is right up there when on form in World terms as a No7 whilst Tipuric is ideal as an impact sub when the game is opening up.
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So do you think Wales are picking the wrong back row, given that they are starting Tip at 7? To me, it says that they are continuing with the tactic of having a strong ball-carrier at 12 which in turn gives them the freedom to play Tip, who is not a hole-puncher but is definitely the best jackler in the NH.

Milk said:
Hogg provides the X factor especially in attack which Halfpenny doesn't do anymore and Te'o was a left field pick of mine based on the fact he's NZ anyway (and I wouldn't have him wearing English white but thems the rules) but he has impressed me with his two cameos to date although I am happy to put either Henshall or Payne in at 13.
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Hogg cannot tackle. Halfpenny can. Simple as that. Henshaw's a 12. Payne falls foul of your "flag of convenience" issue, being a New Zealander.

Milk said:
I would always put Faleutau ahead of big Billy as he is a far better No8 but Billy to come on if needed
Both Biggar & Sexton will go (along with Ford) but who is the No10 on the day is a tough call - something that Gatland is not afraid of doing.
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Faletau ahead of Billy Vunipola? Come on man, you accused ME of bias! You're right that all three 10s will go. What do you think about the theory that you should pick your halfbacks in pairs?

Milk said:
All I hope is that it is a competitive series and that the Lions win at least one test. It would be a crying shame if future tours no longer take place
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Agreed! But I wasn't aware that there was a question mark over future tours - what have you heard?
 

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