Average big 'uns vs Good little 'uns

[Bruce Wayne]

In the aftermath of the England defeat to Croatia there has been much soul searching in the press about where our youth systems are going wrong. One thing that has cropped up repeatedely is the accusation that too much of our youth football is based around getting results rather than honing performances, and that to achieve that youth coaches overwhelmingly select big, strong lads who can physically overwhelm any opposition with a torrent of long ball football.

You know something is wrong when an Under-18 academy coach meekly apologises to his opposite number for his team's up-and-under style on the grounds that - and listen to this - "it's the only way our lads know how to play".

Imagine the scene: Monday morning in a training ground canteen where, over a cup of tea, the manager asks his youth team coach how it went at the weekend. "Yeah, not bad boss", comes the smug reply. "We beat Man United 2-0. Did really well."

Ah, but did they? Did that team overcome a United side probably boasting more ability by staying true to the principles of passing, movement and control? Or was the result engineered by picking bigger, stronger kids from the age groups above, who simply overpowered their opponents in steamroller style?

Discuss.

 

[Rob]

You're spot on Bruce, Just by talking to a couple of people in and around the business of football you can find loads of examples of lads with genuine talent being told they aren't big enough, thats rubbish IMO.

I say if you can't beat em, join em, look at what brazil do and copy it.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

It's interesting that you mention Brazil because despite their stereotype of being flamboyant ball players, in recent years they have been selecting players as much on athleticism as anything else. Indeed their Copa America final against Argentina was branded in some quarters beauty and the beast, with Brazil playing the role of the beast.

It is largely regarded these days that Argentina are at the forefront of youth football due to the system put in place by Peckerman.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/solpda/ukfs_sport/hi/newsid_7066000/7066112.stm

The rush towards ever greater athleticism threatens to transform football into a game for giants - bigger and stronger than ever before, running faster in order to crash into each other as soon as possible.

But Pekerman and Tocalli consistently kept faith with the most positive aspects of Argentine football identity - the idea that the game can be wonderfully interpreted by skilful little players, who use their talent and low centre of gravity to avoid the challenges and keep the ball moving.

It's interesting to note, based on the above quote, that so many on here objected to whatsisname coming on here and saying that football should pick athletes from other sports based on their ability to run quickly and jump well, yet those very criteria are often what gets young players selected in England. When Argentina played Colombia recently, Colombia coach Jorge Luis Pinto after the game dubbed them not only the best side in the world, but the best he has seen in the last 20 years.

Praise indeed.

 

[CanadaToffee]

When I read that quote - bigger, stronger, crash into each other - I immediately thought of Chelsea - Essien, Mikel, Ballack, Droghba...

 

[Philw]

i think its telling that many people consider messi to be the best player in europe if not the world atm... and before him ronaldinho...

and our own midfield has a combined height of about 7' 2"

 

[SuitsBlue]

you are never going to get away from 'the reducer', its a way to level the game - cars does it for us, butt and keane used to do it for them... currently hargreaves is being nurtured for it - its about balance - getting a player strong in the challenge that can also pass and move. although this is all fine and well in a week where campo, speed, and mccann fought in midfield to earn a win against last seasons champions. (not missing davies and a couple of other mean spirited grocks)

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Neither Barcelona or Arsenal have what I'd call a bruiser in midfield, certainly not in the Keane/Viera mold. Obviously strength will play a part in football but I think you can be good defensively through exceptional positional play as much as brute force.

Besides which, we're talking of picking a whole team of kids here just because they're big lumps that can kick it a long way. It's hardly a good thing is it. I can't think of a single English player since god knows when that could have scored a goal like this one by Messi.

[media]http://youtube.com/watch?v=7nhvuSujaX4&feature=related[/media]

The speed, the ball control, the dribbling, the balance, the shot. Who cares if he's 5'5" and 10 stone wet through? There's another video on that page against Zaragoza, the guy's a magician, an absolute magician.

 

[chicoazul]

I love the way Suits uses the word 'grocks'.

Proceed:

 

[TX Bill]

Neither Barcelona or Arsenal have what I'd call a bruiser in midfield, certainly not in the Keane/Viera mold. Obviously strength will play a part in football but I think you can be good defensively through exceptional positional play as much as brute force.

Besides which, we're talking of picking a whole team of kids here just because they're big lumps that can kick it a long way. It's hardly a good thing is it. I can't think of a single English player since god knows when that could have scored a goal like this one by Messi.

[media]http://youtube.com/watch?v=7nhvuSujaX4&feature=related[/media]

The speed, the ball control, the dribbling, the balance, the shot. Who cares if he's 5'5" and 10 stone wet through? There's another video on that page against Zaragoza, the guy's a magician, an absolute magician.

You're absolutely right. Doesn't matter if you can't catch him.

 

[SuitsBlue]

there will always be exceptional players, and they are rare - it wasnt coaching and management that made messi so good. to believe otherwise is folly.

natural talent and ability coupled with commitment is what it takes.

i wonder, is messi absolutely marvelous every game? because the numbers suggest a tall player, heavier than most that is a good sprinter will be a 'tall player, heavier than most that is a good sprinter' most games he plays. skill has an off day, physical attributes are permanent.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Surely if that were the case Bolton would be top of the league rather than Arsenal, and England would have won something in the past 40 years?

A big guy with skill will get to the top. A little guy with skill will get to the top. A big guy with no skill won't. I'm not talking reasonable standard playing in the PL definition of top, we want players to win trophies. The Dickson Etuhu's of this world won't get you close.

I also don't buy the natural talent vs coaching argument either, that just seems a cop out. If you look at the best English players, the likes of Rooney and Gerrard, they tend to be big, powerful and direct, capable of scoring blockbusters from long range. How many players like Scholes do we produce, let alone like Messi?

Argentina, as mentioned in my initial posts, are famous these days for developing short players ala Messi and Tevez that are exceptional on the ball. Spain seem to have Fabregas style midfielders coming out of their ears. Surely if it was purely down to natural talent as you say then there wouldn't be such distinctions based on the attitude taken to the coaching of young players?

I can't think of a single English player that would make a World XI at the moment. If as a club and a nation we're happy with that, and happy not to win any tournaments then we may as well carry on as before but if we're not happy with that then we have to accept that we've been doing something wrong in the development of our players.

 

[SuitsBlue]

skill has an off day i recall saying.

could the likes of maradona and zidane have been taught to play as they did, or was it something else?

you can put a kid into art school for 40 years and the then grown up wont necessarily produce masterpieces like picasso and van gogh.

i fully take on board that coaching at youth level can help fashion gems for the future, but the precious stones - be it rough - need to be turned up in the first place. how often does the mcdonals, sunny D, playstation generation produce a diamond like messi or kaka.