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ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC" part 3

1) Just as a point of order, I don't think they have had most days, I believe that is Crystal Palace. So in neither of the 2 key measures (players and days) they are not the worst affected. They have been affected, but by no means the worst is my wider point.

2) I mean of course there is a wider argument here, but we are dealing with the edges. Centre backs defend, midfielders consolidate, fullbacks and atatckers attack. They have kept Arnold and Robertson fit through most of the season, the front 3 have remained fit for that time. They have also kept Thaigo and Wijnaldum, who would have been central in their plans fit. There is no excuse for why the attacking play has gone to pot. If it was a mild drop off,mahbe some credence can be given to them losing VVD, but they've fallen off a cliff. I don't foresee, when you see the ages of those players, any of them getting magically better next season.

The CB's for them have become a scapegoat, but as their core job- to stop goals, they've done that quite well. Were Liverpool losing 4-3 every week, or Martinezing it, I would have some sympathy for the view, but the attacking players have really let them down.

Of course there are some differences to Spurs, but I see it as very similar. Oddly Poch was given a lot of money to spend that summer, and it didn't work out, as once the rot sets in, it's very hard to turn it around. In the end, it's still 22 men kicking a ball around, and if you lose a yard of pace, or a bit of intensity or desire, it probably doesn't come back.

As for guessing, I am probably allowing some of my trading way of thinking come into it. I mean it's a bit reductive, but it also gives a good basis. Very few teams will lose 30+ points year on year and automatically get it back immediately. They are at the start of a long journey now. I'd say the same for us, for consistency, you don't become a 60 something point team and catch City in a season. We have a younger squad, a more settled manager and momentum, but I wouldn't even say we could do it.

The Europa thing is an argument in itself. I tend to waffle on, but if I wastrying to be succint I'd say they'd actually want it for revenue streams. You'd imagine that sponsors will have an additional negotiate down clause if they have no Europe, and Anfield doesn't get used 10+ times a season more than it might, which is a big money loser. The flip is though, it puts big pressure on your squad, so I do get it's a catch 22.
Re: number 1
Why is this even a thing?
I have never seen such numbers being discussed in any other season.
I have also never seen the lowest numbers being discussed. If I had then I’m fairly sure that the RS would have led the way with 1 player for 2 hours 38 minutes last season.
 

I'm not being horrible, but they have a wage bill that is in the top 5 of world football. If their 2nd choice fullbacks aren't good enough, that is a big black mark on the recruitment team and manager.

Of course you rotate. I mean, even last season, after the lockdown he kept flogging the players after the league was won. It was mindless. He should have plaayed under 23's once they got through in the CL and probably put out a 2nd string for all away games of the CL in what was quite an easy group etc.

The injuries have come, because he's just not managed his team well enough/squad well enough.

They paud 15m for Timiskas, the same as what we did for Digne and around treble what we paid for Baines. He has to be able to step in and do a job.
dont disagree one bit - although in your man timiskas' defence, I think he has been injured the whole time as well.
 
Re: number 1
Why is this even a thing?
I have never seen such numbers being discussed in any other season.
I have also never seen the lowest numbers being discussed. If I had then I’m fairly sure that the RS would have led the way with 1 player for 2 hours 38 minutes last season.

@catcherintherye - just to answer you both on point of order

I did a bit of a dig on line - I think the below gives perspective. The numbers are stark and paint picture, but squad management has to be point of blame for it.

With regards to the general point of it being discussed more this season, I'm not so sure, I think we are closer to it because of the derby, but injuries are a key part of the football news cycle every year. Even in recent weeks, Southamptons crisis has got plenty of coverage

Data before last weekends round of fixtures:

1615303027969.webp
 
dont disagree one bit - although in your man timiskas' defence, I think he has been injured the whole time as well.

I've seen him on the bench quite a bit. At times in games he didn't even make his subs and kept him there.

To me he was tyring to petulantly make some point about subs, but I can't help but feel it really backfired.
 

@catcherintherye - just to answer you both on point of order

I did a bit of a dig on line - I think the below gives perspective. The numbers are stark and paint picture, but squad management has to be point of blame for it.

With regards to the general point of it being discussed more this season, I'm not so sure, I think we are closer to it because of the derby, but injuries are a key part of the football news cycle every year. Even in recent weeks, Southamptons crisis has got plenty of coverage

Data before last weekends round of fixtures:

View attachment 120636

I'll be honest mate, but those numbers look way off, or they are certainly way off what was reported in the Athletic. I don't remember the exact numbers, but we were much closer, and Palace seems very low as well.

We just seem far too low there. Gbamin has missed 27, Delph has missed 20+, James 15+, Coleman 15+, just on those lads alone we are well above the number they've given to us. Thats before you even get to Allan, Richarlison, DCL, Kenny, Olsen, Pickford, Doucoure, Gomes, Digne, Holgate, Mina etc who've all missed 5-10+ games. Before you're even trying youre at 150 games there. It just feels massively too low.
 
I'll be honest mate, but those numbers look way off, or they are certainly way off what was reported in the Athletic. I don't remember the exact numbers, but we were much closer, and Palace seems very low as well.

We just seem far too low there. Gbamin has missed 27, Delph has missed 20+, James 15+, Coleman 15+, just on those lads alone we are well above the number they've given to us. Thats before you even get to Allan, Richarlison, DCL, Kenny, Olsen, Pickford, Doucoure, Gomes, Digne, Holgate, Mina etc who've all missed 5-10+ games. Before you're even trying youre at 150 games there. It just feels massively too low.


I havent validated them mate but they are provided by 21stclub, a sports data consultancy offering insights to clubs as well as media (according to their blurb) - their site looks interesting.

I have no reason to doubt, not the time to double check. that's what i based the initial numbers on; skysports also showed a similar chart, which showed days per team and it told a very very similar story.

Either way, it doesnt change the point that these are probably self inflicted wounds.
 
1) Just as a point of order, I don't think they have had most days, I believe that is Crystal Palace. So in neither of the 2 key measures (players and days) they are not the worst affected. They have been affected, but by no means the worst is my wider point.

2) I mean of course there is a wider argument here, but we are dealing with the edges. Centre backs defend, midfielders consolidate, fullbacks and atatckers attack. They have kept Arnold and Robertson fit through most of the season, the front 3 have remained fit for that time. They have also kept Thaigo and Wijnaldum, who would have been central in their plans fit. There is no excuse for why the attacking play has gone to pot. If it was a mild drop off,mahbe some credence can be given to them losing VVD, but they've fallen off a cliff. I don't foresee, when you see the ages of those players, any of them getting magically better next season.

The CB's for them have become a scapegoat, but as their core job- to stop goals, they've done that quite well. Were Liverpool losing 4-3 every week, or Martinezing it, I would have some sympathy for the view, but the attacking players have really let them down.

Of course there are some differences to Spurs, but I see it as very similar. Oddly Poch was given a lot of money to spend that summer, and it didn't work out, as once the rot sets in, it's very hard to turn it around. In the end, it's still 22 men kicking a ball around, and if you lose a yard of pace, or a bit of intensity or desire, it probably doesn't come back.

As for guessing, I am probably allowing some of my trading way of thinking come into it. I mean it's a bit reductive, but it also gives a good basis. Very few teams will lose 30+ points year on year and automatically get it back immediately. They are at the start of a long journey now. I'd say the same for us, for consistency, you don't become a 60 something point team and catch City in a season. We have a younger squad, a more settled manager and momentum, but I wouldn't even say we could do it.

The Europa thing is an argument in itself. I tend to waffle on, but if I wastrying to be succint I'd say they'd actually want it for revenue streams. You'd imagine that sponsors will have an additional negotiate down clause if they have no Europe, and Anfield doesn't get used 10+ times a season more than it might, which is a big money loser. The flip is though, it puts big pressure on your squad, so I do get it's a catch 22.
Sp
1) Just as a point of order, I don't think they have had most days, I believe that is Crystal Palace. So in neither of the 2 key measures (players and days) they are not the worst affected. They have been affected, but by no means the worst is my wider point.

2) I mean of course there is a wider argument here, but we are dealing with the edges. Centre backs defend, midfielders consolidate, fullbacks and atatckers attack. They have kept Arnold and Robertson fit through most of the season, the front 3 have remained fit for that time. They have also kept Thaigo and Wijnaldum, who would have been central in their plans fit. There is no excuse for why the attacking play has gone to pot. If it was a mild drop off,mahbe some credence can be given to them losing VVD, but they've fallen off a cliff. I don't foresee, when you see the ages of those players, any of them getting magically better next season.

The CB's for them have become a scapegoat, but as their core job- to stop goals, they've done that quite well. Were Liverpool losing 4-3 every week, or Martinezing it, I would have some sympathy for the view, but the attacking players have really let them down.

Of course there are some differences to Spurs, but I see it as very similar. Oddly Poch was given a lot of money to spend that summer, and it didn't work out, as once the rot sets in, it's very hard to turn it around. In the end, it's still 22 men kicking a ball around, and if you lose a yard of pace, or a bit of intensity or desire, it probably doesn't come back.

As for guessing, I am probably allowing some of my trading way of thinking come into it. I mean it's a bit reductive, but it also gives a good basis. Very few teams will lose 30+ points year on year and automatically get it back immediately. They are at the start of a long journey now. I'd say the same for us, for consistency, you don't become a 60 something point team and catch City in a season. We have a younger squad, a more settled manager and momentum, but I wouldn't even say we could do it.

The Europa thing is an argument in itself. I tend to waffle on, but if I wastrying to be succint I'd say they'd actually want it for revenue streams. You'd imagine that sponsors will have an additional negotiate down clause if they have no Europe, and Anfield doesn't get used 10+ times a season more than it might, which is a big money loser. The flip is though, it puts big pressure on your squad, so I do get it's a catch 22.
Spot on regarding the money and the revenue streams. The Europa League generates millions in turnover and losing the money the 'famous European nights under lights' at Anfield generates would be a serious loss of revenue. It would also improve their chances of signing decent players. No European football whatsoever in the forseeable and they are between a rock and a hard place when it comes to recruitment. Cash is king these days and it is for FSG so depriving them of that is what we need.
 
@catcherintherye - just to answer you both on point of order

I did a bit of a dig on line - I think the below gives perspective. The numbers are stark and paint picture, but squad management has to be point of blame for it.

With regards to the general point of it being discussed more this season, I'm not so sure, I think we are closer to it because of the derby, but injuries are a key part of the football news cycle every year. Even in recent weeks, Southamptons crisis has got plenty of coverage

Data before last weekends round of fixtures:

View attachment 120636
That chart looks like a Kopite has had too much time on their hands.

Regardless of that though, if a club is thought to be an elite club - and regards itself as such - there can be no excuse for bringing up days lost through injury for 2/3/4 usual first team players. Elite clubs have elite squads (or should have given the cash they spend). If they dont, then that's just tough. It's a reflection of how poorly governed that club is.

For me it;s clear to see what happened: Klopp and LFC's owners bought into a belief that the youngsters coming through were going to be slotted seamlessly into the first team squad and pick up starting places. They overestimated badly how good those youngsters were and didn't press on beyond Jota and Thiago to strengthen when they should have done in the transfer market.

Cry me a 'kin river over injuries. They aren't Tranmere, they profess themselves to be a global elite club. So let's hear none of this "injuries robbed us" BS. They are just a second rate governed organisation.
 

I havent validated them mate but they are provided by 21stclub, a sports data consultancy offering insights to clubs as well as media (according to their blurb) - their site looks interesting.

I have no reason to doubt, not the time to double check. that's what i based the initial numbers on; skysports also showed a similar chart, which showed days per team and it told a very very similar story.

Either way, it doesnt change the point that these are probably self inflicted wounds.
Screenshot_2021-03-01-00-01-20-451_com.twitter.android.webp
 
I havent validated them mate but they are provided by 21stclub, a sports data consultancy offering insights to clubs as well as media (according to their blurb) - their site looks interesting.

I have no reason to doubt, not the time to double check. that's what i based the initial numbers on; skysports also showed a similar chart, which showed days per team and it told a very very similar story.

Either way, it doesnt change the point that these are probably self inflicted wounds.

I haven't got time to double check either, but those numbers look way off what the Athletic was reporting, and just look at feel way out. I've also seen it reported that Palace have had 15 odd players out this season, Southampton have regularly had 10+ out, the numbers just don't make sense. I've seen reports of Palace having the most games out and us having the most players out.

If it was slight adjustment, with Liverpool a bit ahead and us on circa 150-200 games I'd sort of go, yes that feels intuitively about right. But us sitting on about 80 games out, when I've listed injuries off the top of my head getting us to 150 games missed, means the whole chart looks way out, and should probably be discarded as inadmissable, and the company who collate their data need to probably look for another area to report on!

The chart just looks wrong
 
@catcherintherye - just to answer you both on point of order

I did a bit of a dig on line - I think the below gives perspective. The numbers are stark and paint picture, but squad management has to be point of blame for it.

With regards to the general point of it being discussed more this season, I'm not so sure, I think we are closer to it because of the derby, but injuries are a key part of the football news cycle every year. Even in recent weeks, Southamptons crisis has got plenty of coverage

Data before last weekends round of fixtures:

View attachment 120636
I really wanted to add ‘I await to be corrected by Number4’ at the end of my post but CBA.
I didn’t say that the data isn’t collected but I can’t remember it ever being discussed in such minutiae in previous seasons. The plight of Soton and Leicester has been brought up but we know who made the issue trendy.
 

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