2020/21 Abdoulaye Doucouré

[Egil Olsen]

I think that's a slightly different point though isn't it? Pirlo would still have looked like a terrific player if he was playing for Burnley, he wouldn't have been as effective but you'd have been able to see the ability there and he'd have been snapped up by somebody better very quickly. Chris Wood would look rubbish whoever he played for, but in certain set ups he would be more effective than others. Everyone knows that, it's why he's still playing for Burnley and didn't get bought by Barcelona. I think sometimes people try to make football much more complicated than it actually is. Usually the team with the best players wins the game, it's honestly pretty simple.

I agree with the general assumption that the teams with the best players win. But my point is that the system can make the individual players better, and by doing this the team is made better. For example. in PL there are no big margins between Manchester City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Manchester United if you look at the players. Therefore, the assumptions are also more equal, and then other factors play a much greater role.

In addition, I also believe that a player is never a finished product, there are always things you can learn and develop on. Here the coach plays an important role. For example. Ancelotti has given clear instructions to DCL on how to move when we have the ball. Guerdiola works with details such as the correct body profile, head up, back foot, front foot, etc., with his players. Bielsa controls the movements of his players at a detailed level, and they practice this constantly in training.

Another factor is a club's ability to identify the right players for its playing system. Then you can not only buy the supposed best players, but must buy the players who have skills that suit the role. This also requires a stable system, ie the club must have adopted some clear principles. You can not change philosophy every two years.

 

[Lanolin]

I agree with the general assumption that the teams with the best players win. But my point is that the system can make the individual players better, and by doing this the team is made better. For example. in PL there are no big margins between Manchester City, Liverpool, Chelsea and Manchester United if you look at the players. Therefore, the assumptions are also more equal, and then other factors play a much greater role.

In addition, I also believe that a player is never a finished product, there are always things you can learn and develop on. Here the coach plays an important role. For example. Ancelotti has given clear instructions to DCL on how to move when we have the ball. Guerdiola works with details such as the correct body profile, head up, back foot, front foot, etc., with his players. Bielsa controls the movements of his players at a detailed level, and they practice this constantly in training.

Another factor is a club's ability to identify the right players for its playing system. Then you can not only buy the supposed best players, but must buy the players who have skills that suit the role. This also requires a stable system, ie the club must have adopted some clear principles. You can not change philosophy every two years.

Of course, but the point being made originally was that you can't judge Doucoure until he has a good team around him. I'm saying that's patently nonsense, and whether his team mates are good or not, he should still be expected to perform to a good level himself. I think he is performing just fine to be clear, I'm talking more generally, we often seem to make excuses for certain players so that it's always someone else's fault when they don't perform.

 

[Egil Olsen]

Of course, but the point being made originally was that you can't judge Doucoure until he has a good team around him. I'm saying that's patently nonsense, and whether his team mates are good or not, he should still be expected to perform to a good level himself. I think he is performing just fine to be clear, I'm talking more generally, we often seem to make excuses for certain players so that it's always someone else's fault when they don't perform.

The only way we can judge players is how they solve the instruction they receive from the coach. I can only guess that his role is primarily to cover room for JR, so that the latter can more or less have a free role. He has mostly done well.

But the argument you are arguing against is not entirely wrong. There are nuances. For example. number 7 in a 1-4-3-3 formation depends on number 8 being able to connect to number 6, and players behind him. If not, the team will not be able to put him up in 1 vs. 1 situations, or create 2 vs. 1 situations.

I'm Norwegian, and we have an ok striker named Haaland. On the national team he has had some ok matches, but when we have played important matches he has looked like a pub player. It has nothing to do with Haaland's skills, but it has to do with the team not being able to put him up in situations where he gets to use his skills. In Dortmund, on the other hand, he plays with far better players, and is constantly put up in these situations.

 

[Lanolin]

The only way we can judge players is how they solve the instruction they receive from the coach. I can only guess that his role is primarily to cover room for JR, so that the latter can more or less have a free role. He has mostly done well.

But the argument you are arguing against is not entirely wrong. There are nuances. For example. number 7 in a 1-4-3-3 formation depends on number 8 being able to connect to number 6, and players behind him. If not, the team will not be able to put him up in 1 vs. 1 situations, or create 2 vs. 1 situations.

I'm Norwegian, and we have an ok striker named Haaland. On the national team he has had some ok matches, but when we have played important matches he has looked like a pub player. It has nothing to do with Haaland's skills, but it has to do with the team not being able to put him up in situations where he gets to use his skills. In Dortmund, on the other hand, he plays with far better players, and is constantly put up in these situations.

He should never look like a pub player though. And what 'important matches' has he played in his 6 starts for the national team (in which he's scored 6 goals)? Perhaps Norwegian pub teams are a bit better than ours but I think you've picked a pretty rotten example there.

I've seen some awful Everton teams but good players have still managed to look like good players in them. Wayne Rooney came through in a team that had midfielders like Li Tie, Mark Pembridge, Gary Naysmith and Scott Gemill supplying him but I don't recall anyone struggling to see his ability. Arteta used to manage to create chances for people like Anichebe, Beckford and McFadden. Of course everybody will look better when surrounded by quality; It's why young academy graduates often don't look out of place on the 2 or 3 occasions they get a game before dropping down the leagues, they just keep it simple and let the better players carry them through. You can still show your own quality even when your team mates are rubbish though, especially when your new team is considerably better than your old team was.

 

[Egil Olsen]

He should never look like a pub player though. And what 'important matches' has he played in his 6 starts for the national team (in which he's scored 6 goals)? Perhaps Norwegian pub teams are a bit better than ours but I think you've picked a pretty rotten example there.

I've seen some awful Everton teams but good players have still managed to look like good players in them. Wayne Rooney came through in a team that had midfielders like Li Tie, Mark Pembridge, Gary Naysmith and Scott Gemill supplying him but I don't recall anyone struggling to see his ability. Arteta used to manage to create chances for people like Anichebe, Beckford and McFadden. Of course everybody will look better when surrounded by quality; It's why young academy graduates often don't look out of place on the 2 or 3 occasions they get a game before dropping down the leagues, they just keep it simple and let the better players carry them through. You can still show your own quality even when your team mates are rubbish though, especially when your new team is considerably better than your old team was.

It was not the best example But he was not very convincing against Serbia or Austria - even though he scored against Austria. He was also not very good against Northern Ireland in the last match. But again, my point is that it was not due to Haaland, but because the collective failed. My point was also not that you were completely wrong, but just that the picture needs to be nuanced. There are many players whose skills have been misjudged over the years, but when they have been put in a different context, they have flourished. DCL is a recent example.

 

[Lanolin]

It was not the best example But he was not very convincing against Serbia or Austria - even though he scored against Austria. He was also not very good against Northern Ireland in the last match. But again, my point is that it was not due to Haaland, but because the collective failed. My point was also not that you were completely wrong, but just that the picture needs to be nuanced. There are many players whose skills have been misjudged over the years, but when they have been put in a different context, they have flourished. DCL is a recent example.

As I said earlier, you're basically arguing a completely different point. Of course things are nuanced, of course players can be better in one environment than in another, nobody has said otherwise - but that isn't what the conversation was about. The discussion started because somebody said we can only judge Allan and Doucoure when they're surrounded by quality players. I'm saying that's not true. We didn't pay £50m for them to play in a hypothetical scenario, we paid £50m for them to play in this team, with these team mates. They might never be surrounded by quality players. They will be judged on their performances whoever they're playing with, it's part of the job. Sometimes they might be poor because the team as a whole is poor, sometimes they might be poor because they're just having one of those days, they're human after all. The simple basis of the point though, is that those poor performances need to be rare, and if they're not then 'i'd be fine if we had Messi to pass to' won't be an acceptable excuse.

 

[Egil Olsen]

As I said earlier, you're basically arguing a completely different point. Of course things are nuanced, of course players can be better in one environment than in another, nobody has said otherwise - but that isn't what the conversation was about. The discussion started because somebody said we can only judge Allan and Doucoure when they're surrounded by quality players. I'm saying that's not true. We didn't pay £50m for them to play in a hypothetical scenario, we paid £50m for them to play in this team, with these team mates. They might never be surrounded by quality players. They will be judged on their performances whoever they're playing with, it's part of the job. Sometimes they might be poor because the team as a whole is poor, sometimes they might be poor because they're just having one of those days, they're human after all. The simple basis of the point though, is that those poor performances need to be rare, and if they're not then 'i'd be fine if we had Messi to pass to' won't be an acceptable excuse.

Ok. Well then, I agree, provided the sample size is large enough. I have bigger concerns about Allan than AD, not because he has played very badly, but I think he struggles with the pace and positioning sometimes. But it is too early to conclude.

 

[Dublin blue 75]

We are ten games into the season and - stand to be corrected - don't believe he has had the opportunity to get a shot on target just yet. I recall him frequently getting in or around the box and having a very powerful shot on him. Today is your day Duke. (We need a couple of goals from each of you and Allan to take the pressure of Dom too).

 

[Dario Terracotta]

Ok. Well then, I agree, provided the sample size is large enough. I have bigger concerns about Allan than AD, not because he has played very badly, but I think he struggles with the pace and positioning sometimes. But it is too early to conclude.

Allan I thought was outstanding up to getting that groin injury against West ham,since then he has struggled,I fear he may be carrying the injury still, it may be a case of rest and recuperation between games when it may well have served him better to have just missed two or three games for long term benefit,just guessing though!!

 

[jimmythenut]

I think Doucoure needs to improve his pressing and forward runs today . In the Southampton game especially his determination and desire to pressure the opposition left him so far out of position.

It's admirable and refreshing to see him desperate to win the ball but at times he'd be better off keeping a solid line with Allan and whoever. Protecting the centre backs more.

If the rest of the midfield and forward line chipped in more with a press he wouldn't look like a headless chicken. I think that's where the midfield needs to have a better balance and understand each others role's more.

 

[catcherintherye]

Of course, but the point being made originally was that you can't judge Doucoure until he has a good team around him. I'm saying that's patently nonsense, and whether his team mates are good or not, he should still be expected to perform to a good level himself. I think he is performing just fine to be clear, I'm talking more generally, we often seem to make excuses for certain players so that it's always someone else's fault when they don't perform.

Is there not a case though, that outside a handful of players at the top, that actually you need the right system to get the best out of people? I mean James could go anywhere and be brilliant. Alex Iwobi needs a very specific set of circumstances to be brilliant. Michael Keane is another, if you play a certain way, he's brilliant but it doesn't translate.

The cvaet to this with Doucoure, as with lots of player, is just playing in a better team doesn't always make them better. I'd say he probably looked best (thus far) in a poorer Watford team, where he felt more responsibility and carried the ball more.I think he's playing within himself a little here.

My personally I switch him with Gomes in roles, Gomes sitting deeper, Doucoure with the license to break forward and roam a bit more.

Of course, the key is just buying good players, but utilising them also matters.

 

[Quadvod]

I’d like to see him break forward and run beyond dcl - will offer james another option to hit. Feel like he’s being constrained to cover the full backs bombing on which is no bad thing as a rule but think there’s an opportunity to run beyond the likes of matic and pogba today

 

[Lanolin]

Is there not a case though, that outside a handful of players at the top, that actually you need the right system to get the best out of people? I mean James could go anywhere and be brilliant. Alex Iwobi needs a very specific set of circumstances to be brilliant. Michael Keane is another, if you play a certain way, he's brilliant but it doesn't translate.

The cvaet to this with Doucoure, as with lots of player, is just playing in a better team doesn't always make them better. I'd say he probably looked best (thus far) in a poorer Watford team, where he felt more responsibility and carried the ball more.I think he's playing within himself a little here.

My personally I switch him with Gomes in roles, Gomes sitting deeper, Doucoure with the license to break forward and roam a bit more.

Of course, the key is just buying good players, but utilising them also matters.

Of course that’s all true, but I’ve already explained what I’m talking about.

The specific point being addressed is that we can’t judge Allan or Doucouré until they’re surrounded by quality players. I’m just saying that doesn’t wash, we’ve bought them to perform in this team not in a parallel universe. Whether they’d look better in the Bayern team or the Barnet team is really neither here nor there when judging their performances for Everton.

 

[CahillsCornerFlag]

I think Doucoure has suffered from our third centre mid offering next to nothing. If we had someone playmaking in the middle too I think he'd be breaking forward a lot more. As it stands he has to spend the majority of the game running back towards his own goal.

 

[Egil Olsen]

Allan I thought was outstanding up to getting that groin injury against West ham,since then he has struggled,I fear he may be carrying the injury still, it may be a case of rest and recuperation between games when it may well have served him better to have just missed two or three games for long term benefit,just guessing though!!

Yes, possibly he is playing with a minor injury. Time will tell.