ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC" part 2

[JelavicBrate2]

Sounds like that was a proper atmosphere there tonight. A few comments from the RS over there about RSBelgrade being a small team. Zero respect, no surprise there. And lots going on about how Shaqiri must play every game. Oh yes, it's always the one player missing who could have made all the difference. And Klopp getting dogs abuse for not having the balls to take him. Whats the worse that would happen? the coach gets attacked on the way to the game?? Can't be having nonsense like that can we.

 

[Seathestars]

Alisson fell like a tree instead of diving. JP saves that with ease mate.

Even for the first goal he was rooted to the spot, very slow feet for a so called top keeper.

 

[helpimonfire]

They were plop, but they have not slipped yet. They do not look anywhere near that cheating Man City, or Chelsea. I will be happier once they drop a few points and a gap opens up.

 

[Parker]

Even for the first goal he was rooted to the spot, very slow feet for a so called top keeper.

I've only seen a few replays but that one just looked like a bullet header. I wouldn't put to much blame on him for that one, its more the defence's error. The second one he doesn't even leave the floor, there is no power or spring in the dive so he couldn't reach it. The bloke hits it well but as I say Pickford tips that over comfortably.

 

[Saint Domingo]

The realization is definitely setting in amongst them now. You are well and truly at the weaseling stage of proceedings. There are a multitude of fan articles emerging now essentially along an “it’s not fair” narrative as opposed to the “everyone is terrified of us”.

The main strands of the argument seem to be that it is unfair that they don’t win the league if they get a set amount of points. Essentially Manchester City are essentially cheating by being miles better than them. This frustration and entitlement will grow and lead to a searing jealousy, bitterness and hatred developing towards City (which is already well under way). Whats going to be funny, is pretty soon most of them will cheer for United over City (if that hasn’t already happened). The general fickle nature of their fan support and their invented rivalry with United will be laid quite bare through this process (remember when they tried to make out they were brothers in arms with City?)



What underpins this change is a growing acceptance of reality. That they are not a serious threat to City and ultimately their owners won’t spend enough money for them to be. They backed themselves into such an intellectual corner with their uncritical support for Klopp that they now look quite stupid, given the mega money he has spent he still looks miles off having a top team. There will be lots of spin emerging over coming months.

From moment one (in fact from well before the season started) I predicted them to have a fast start and then hit a dip in the autumn. I remember much derision for this, particularly when I seemed relatively nonplussed at their early season form. No doubt all the idiots who were carrying on that Liverpool will blitz everyone will now hold their hands up and admit they were wrong and I was right (again) but humility amongst Kopites seems to run at a very low level. I can’t actually remember any Kopite ever admitting they were wrong and I was right, despite me calling pretty much every season correctly. They are the Donald Trump of the football world really, garish, oafish, brash but alas we digress.

What I maintained was there would be a dip, even when they were on a scintillating run of narrow wins against the likes of Brighton, Leicester and Crystal Palace. What can now no longer be in doubt, is that there has been a dip. What is also irrefutable is that the dip is now lasting longer than we many first anticipated. The nature of the debate is no longer “will there be a dip” or “how long will the dip last” but rather “how deep will it go”.

So far the severity of the dip hasn’t gone too far. For the most part they have slipped up in games you would expect them too (albeit the level of performance has been quite lifeless). Last night hints at a deepening of the dip though. They are a rank poor side, haven’t won a CL game in decades etc. There is now a worry for Liverpool that they start slipping up, and even losing games they ought to win in a moderate season (say one that sees them finishing 6th). That hasn’t happened yet but I will be keeping an eye on that one.

The other potential question now has to be whether a deeper, longer dip may actually become a full blown crisis. The sort that saw the back of Houllier, Rodgers and Benitez before Klopp. While I would still caution against this happening we are approaching a point where this is now a valid and worthwhile point of debate. While Klopp has generally always had these dips each season and found a way out of them, there are several factors that are unique to this season which put him under pressure.

We have touched in great detail before about fatigue. I don’t wish to labour said point unnecessarily other than to reiterate all of those points remain true. Last season was extremely long, starting before most of their rivals and finishing significantly after. You then add in the World Cup and Klopp’s propensity to not give injured players enough rest time before rushing them back (wait to see Henderson & Keita thrown straight back in, and then look at Lallana and Sturridge who are a shell of the players they were previously for the results in the medium term of this). Salah & Firmino are a long way off where they were last season. Some of this is reverting back to norm after a freakishly good season but I do think there is fatigue there and the performances may continue to dip as the season goes on. Most kopites are almost blissfully ignorant to this and proclaimed a freakish overperformance as the new “norm” and crowned them the best in the world (even at their freakish best they were still some way off that title) but that nonsense of that idea will start to be shown up as the season progresses.

There are other factors unique to this season though. Klopp has recruited badly. For the first time since he’s been there he has bought badly. Despite their best efforts Alisson is a solid good goalkeeper (similar to Pickford) but will make mistakes. Fabinho looks what he is, a lad who had the occasional Brazil cap at full back out of place in midfield in the Premier League. Keita, who we were told would have piped us all down by September on here by reds and shown why he will be the player of the season has fallen so far below those standards it’s laughable.

I remember one particular goading me to come back in September and apologise to him for my skepticism of the player. Well it’s November now and we haven’t heard a peek out of him. As I’ve said, humility, integrity and honesty are really not values they seem to possess for the most part. He hasn’t made any attempt to correct what he put. I was wrong to some degree in my analysis and said he was essentially a Gana level player. That is untrue, he is substantially below Gana’s level and his stats are eerily similar to Tom Davies, yet he’s 4 years older than him.

Without going much further down the rabbit hole Klopp has spent over £100 million on those 2 midfielders. Not only did the team need to improve the midfield (the weak area) so the team is suffering, but for his reputation it’s hard to justify that you are working miracles when you are spending record fees on players who are substantially below the level of a lad like Emre Can who they let leave.

The final (major) difference is the loss of Buvac. Again I remember the argument that Ljinders is a good coach so it wouldn’t matter being made as a counter, and again this missed the point in it’s entirety. Despite Ljinders having questionable coaching abilities (I remember regularly seeing his under 16’s get trounced at Finch Farm, and he has completely flopped as a manager) the issue is more that Klopp and Buvac were a team and had been for well over a decade. Some managers can change Assistants and be ok, but it looks like Klopp was very tied to his, who was the brains behind the gegenpressing strategy and communicated the approach internally. They have been soundly beaten in every European away game since he left and the league performances and results have suffered as a result.

All of these above factors suggest they may not be able to pull themselves out of this dip so easily. While some are clinging to the idea it’s a tactical shift away from gegenpresing that’s seen a change of style I find this naïve. Very little (if anything) has emerged in the local or national media from any player or part of the coaching staff that it was the plan. If it was, fine, here are huge questions as to whether Klopp can tactically succeed as a manager operating on that basis, but the fact he hasn’t tried it in 10+ years before this would be demonstrative in the answer. (This will be the position taking by the Klopp in supporters).

Buvac leaving I have more faith in as a reason for this. The problem for most reds, is this conundrum won’t be solved by Ljinders (or any more capable coaches). If the application of Klopps strategy to be successful relies on Buvac it’s unlikely a substitute will be found.

The final most logical answer for the lack of energy in defence (but also crucially in attack) I would suggest is fatigue. Given Klopp has always front loaded seasons (and generally his teams finish with a bit of a whimper) there really has to be questions asked as to how this season will play out. I suspect you will see a similar pattern, dip, recovery, slow petering out but it may well be played out at a level down. A crisis could well happen before the recover comes though.

I spoke about a key set piece loss could be a trigger point. While it may be last night, I believe it will be averted. They are still ok to complete their objectives in that competition (they still think they are European heavyweight despite not beating one of the top 5-6 teams, Madrid x 2, Barca, Juventus, Bayern etc) so believe they will qualify.

The league is a different matter, it’s more punishing especially with City’s form. They know they have a trip to the Etihad which is a very likely further 3 point handicap. Another slip up piles the pressure on. A defeat against Fulham this weekend could really trigger a crisis.

The last time it felt this was 2 years ago. I remember Gylfi Sigurdsson basically taking liberties and dominating their midfield in a Swansea win at Anfield. What began that slip though, was an initial dip in the autumn which saw them begin to fall behind leaders Chelsea. Klopp recovered that season but it is questionable he does it this season.

We will see. The astute amongst them can see the storm clouds emerging and are already trying to dampen expectation. The problem is, for the most part they were the idiots whipping up the mob into a fury 3 months ago and I can’t see the crowd taking their medicine that it’s another season of top 4 consolidation seriously.

As always, if only they’d have taken my advice, and been sensible, realistic and honest from the start it could have been averted. They never learn.

Great post, I’ve often mentioned on here that I think Klopp missed his chance at success in his early seasons. 15/16 people can rightly say it wasn’t his team etc. Rodgers has a poor start, but the reality is that he had a team with Coutinho Firmino Sturridge Wijnaldum Milner Lallana and finished 8th in the premier league. Leicester City won the league that season. Liverpool won away at Chelsea and City yet came 8th in the league! In a reoccurring theme some good cup runs covered up questionable league form.

16/17. What’s the excuse for this? No Europe to contend with, threw the FA Cup. Guardiola and Mourinho in their first seasons at new clubs with European commitments. New manager at Chelsea who had never been in the prem. Wenger’s Arsenal continuing to decline. Mane Firmino Coutinho upfront. Scraped into fourth and beaten by Southampton home and away in the league cup semi (not just beaten absolutely embarrassed, the away leg could have been 5-0). Somehow finishing fourth was dressed up as a huge step forward and the front three got some weird branding and all of a sudden everything was ok even though Mourinho had the league cup and Europa in his pocket, Wenger had another FA Cup, and Conte had the title! Yet Klopp was being hailed as potentially the best of the lot! Utterly bizarre. I wrote at the end of that season that Klopp had missed his chance at this point as once Guardiola and Mourinho got in situ at City and United the door would be shut.

The season after the two of these clubs are 1 and 2 with City a country mile ahead of Liverpool whose title challenge was over by mid September. Out of both domestic cups immediately but all is forgotten thanks to the easiest CL group in history and a run to the final entirely dependent on weak opposition, poor refereeing against City then one good home performance v Roma. Ultimately it led to nothing with Madrid showing they were a long way off the continental elite. The arrogance of the media at the time proclaiming that the other semi final between Bayern and Real was ‘poor quality’ was staggering after watching the basketball game of Liverpool Roma that was more akin to a Europa league punchout.

Now I see Liverpool as somewhere between 4th and 6th dependent on how Emery’s Arsenal and United shape up. City and Chelsea are clearly better footballing teams with better players and better managers and should already be more ahead than they already are. I even see Spurs without European distractions being more consistent in line with previous seasons. The issue is that just solidifying top 4 won’t be enough for Klopp as he has actively spun a narrative of this year by year growth that is going to culminate in the title and potentially a CL win. Alisson Van Dijk and Keita were the world class pieces, the final step. What happens if they don’t win anything or even worse they drop out the top 4? Does Klopp go again and be trusted by FSG to break more world record transfer fees when he’s delivered nothing? The project would be over and Klopp would probably go before he was fired especially as the rest of the top 6 look like they will only kick on next season (especially Arsenal and Chelsea).

Klopp’s reign in is on a knife edge. He has to have Liverpool in the CL knockouts and within a handful of points of City come February otherwise it’s effectively a failed season even at that point. The way they’re playing at the moment neither of these things are certain. They’ve not even had any major injuries yet either. If Van Dijk or Firmino missed a run of games the whole house of cards could come down. Liverpool fans don’t like this narrative but this is what 3 trophyless seasons and a league position no higher than 4th means for a manager at a big club. They can’t get away from that. He would have been fired at any of City United or Chelsea no question.

 

[Gwladysstreetlad]

 

[bol-uk]

View attachment 51001

Second in the league, still in the CL and they want him out, SOOOO fickle. You reap what you sow, I hope he goes and they get fat sam.
Their sense of entitlement is off the scale, it's as if they expect to just win games (until they get to the final and bottle it).

 

[cronullasharks]

View attachment 51001

One in the middle on the left "I'm a Liverpool" lollollol

 

[Saint Domingo]

Just seen ‘Alisson Blunderland’. Genius.

 

[bol-uk]

Winning the Europa League is a worry for me. While people don't treat the competition seriously you know they would lord it up. I'd prefer them to go through as 2nd as they will get knocked out as soon as they face decent opposition (hopefully they won't be able to avoid this to the final this year).

That being said, the Europa is normally quite strong I think Arsenal and Chelsea would defeat them over 2 legs. Monaco will probably go into it so another strong team. I'd even fancy Spurs or United later in the season to defeat them. They would probably be about 10th favourite for the Europa league even if they got into it, and it would undermine the league season. Lets be honest though, these are going to be well out of title contention by February with or without the Europa League.

You mean bottom of the league Monaco who got battered last night.

 

[Yarrgh]

Great post, I’ve often mentioned on here that I think Klopp missed his chance at success in his early seasons. 15/16 people can rightly say it wasn’t his team etc. Rodgers has a poor start, but the reality is that he had a team with Coutinho Firmino Sturridge Wijnaldum Milner Lallana and finished 8th in the premier league. Leicester City won the league that season. Liverpool won away at Chelsea and City yet came 8th in the league! In a reoccurring theme some good cup runs covered up questionable league form.

16/17. What’s the excuse for this? No Europe to contend with, threw the FA Cup. Guardiola and Mourinho in their first seasons at new clubs with European commitments. New manager at Chelsea who had never been in the prem. Wenger’s Arsenal continuing to decline. Mane Firmino Coutinho upfront. Scraped into fourth and beaten by Southampton home and away in the league cup semi (not just beaten absolutely embarrassed, the away leg could have been 5-0). Somehow finishing fourth was dressed up as a huge step forward and the front three got some weird branding and all of a sudden everything was ok even though Mourinho had the league cup and Europa in his pocket, Wenger had another FA Cup, and Conte had the title! Yet Klopp was being hailed as potentially the best of the lot! Utterly bizarre. I wrote at the end of that season that Klopp had missed his chance at this point as once Guardiola and Mourinho got in situ at City and United the door would be shut.

The season after the two of these clubs are 1 and 2 with City a country mile ahead of Liverpool whose title challenge was over by mid September. Out of both domestic cups immediately but all is forgotten thanks to the easiest CL group in history and a run to the final entirely dependent on weak opposition, poor refereeing against City then one good home performance v Roma. Ultimately it led to nothing with Madrid showing they were a long way off the continental elite. The arrogance of the media at the time proclaiming that the other semi final between Bayern and Real was ‘poor quality’ was staggering after watching the basketball game of Liverpool Roma that was more akin to a Europa league punchout.

Now I see Liverpool as somewhere between 4th and 6th dependent on how Emery’s Arsenal and United shape up. City and Chelsea are clearly better footballing teams with better players and better managers and should already be more ahead than they already are. I even see Spurs without European distractions being more consistent in line with previous seasons. The issue is that just solidifying top 4 won’t be enough for Klopp as he has actively spun a narrative of this year by year growth that is going to culminate in the title and potentially a CL win. Alisson Van Dijk and Keita were the world class pieces, the final step. What happens if they don’t win anything or even worse they drop out the top 4? Does Klopp go again and be trusted by FSG to break more world record transfer fees when he’s delivered nothing? The project would be over and Klopp would probably go before he was fired especially as the rest of the top 6 look like they will only kick on next season (especially Arsenal and Chelsea).

Klopp’s reign in is on a knife edge. He has to have Liverpool in the CL knockouts and within a handful of points of City come February otherwise it’s effectively a failed season even at that point. The way they’re playing at the moment neither of these things are certain. They’ve not even had any major injuries yet either. If Van Dijk or Firmino missed a run of games the whole house of cards could come down. Liverpool fans don’t like this narrative but this is what 3 trophyless seasons and a league position no higher than 4th means for a manager at a big club. They can’t get away from that. He would have been fired at any of City United or Chelsea no question.

Spot on.

We should really be gunning for them now. They're the 3rd or 4th best first 11, could win a cup. But they're a dismal squad and that gets nothing in the league - they were 4th last year, and they've weakened since then. If only Silva had come in when that big slug did...

 

[Saint Domingo]

Spot on.

We should really be gunning for them now. They're the 3rd or 4th best first 11, could win a cup. But they're a dismal squad and that gets nothing in the league - they were 4th last year, and they've weakened since then. If only Silva had come in when that big slug did...

If we avoid defeat at Anfield (which statistically we’re pretty adept at) then we probably end their title challenge and open up the prospect of us potentially clawing some ground on them in the second half of the season. I think the points gap is already too big for us to get back unless Klopp absolutely melts down but would put the pressure on them if we got to within striking distance at any point. If their fans see them starting become embroiled with United Arsenal and dare I say Everton around the 4th/5th/6th places after being promised the league then the fume will be unimaginable.

 

[Parker]

If we avoid defeat at Anfield (which statistically we’re pretty adept at) then we probably end their title challenge and open up the prospect of us potentially clawing some ground on them in the second half of the season. I think the points gap is already too big for us to get back unless Klopp absolutely melts down but would put the pressure on them if we got to within striking distance at any point. If their fans see them starting become embroiled with United Arsenal and dare I say Everton around the 4th/5th/6th places after being promised the league then the fume will be unimaginable.

It will be a big derby this for both teams. If we get something from Chelsea and smash Cardiff that will lead us on nicely to this. With the way they are playing and if they stumble against Fulham or Watford, not to mention PSG away in mid week before us, I'd fancy us against them if they were any other team. But its Liverpool so you know they'll be back to the team of last Spring against us. I know Marco will set us up to have a go so like the other games away to the top teams, I will be happy with a good performance were we go at them and a result is a bonus.

 

[Yarrgh]

If we avoid defeat at Anfield (which statistically we’re pretty adept at) then we probably end their title challenge and open up the prospect of us potentially clawing some ground on them in the second half of the season. I think the points gap is already too big for us to get back unless Klopp absolutely melts down but would put the pressure on them if we got to within striking distance at any point. If their fans see them starting become embroiled with United Arsenal and dare I say Everton around the 4th/5th/6th places after being promised the league then the fume will be unimaginable.

Well not to go all APL table, but if the league were to start from this point, I would see them skirting around the 6th/ 7th/ 8th position quite easily. I can see 5/6th for them as it is now. City and Chelsea are winning teams, and Arsenal and Tottenham are starting to look like they can carry themselves through a season, and United seem to have that Mourinho know-how about winning finally this season.

Klopp is an evolutionary dead end in coaching terms. An interesting diversion. Hope they don't go for Shaktar's coach.

 

[YoboCopter]

Well not to go all APL table, but if the league were to start from this point, I would see them skirting around the 6th/ 7th/ 8th position quite easily. I can see 5/6th for them as it is now. City and Chelsea are winning teams, and Arsenal and Tottenham are starting to look like they can carry themselves through a season, and United seem to have that Mourinho know-how about winning finally this season.

Klopp is an evolutionary dead end in coaching terms. An interesting diversion. Hope they don't go for Shaktar's coach.

#bringbackbrenden