Ronald Koeman discussion

[TheCount]

Some of you would really benefit from meditation.

 

[Little Ralphy]

No comparison. We always played football under Martinez, but shot ourselves in the foot with defensive cock ups, Tim Howard brain farts & missed penalties. Koeman has sent £200M & we're playing the worst football since Walter Smith.

Fair enough mate, everyone is entitled to their opinion. There was a lot more wrong with Martinez' side than individual errors though.

 

[COYBL25]

Some of you would really benefit from meditation.

I've found Skunk generally tends to do the trick for most

 

[Toast]

Will get battered by Lyon.
Will get battered by Arsenal.
Fellas on the pitch being restrained by stewards from chinning him after Lacazette bags his 4th.

Booed out of the club and sacked Sunday night.

Unsworth caretaker, and we knock Chelsea out of the cup.. and suddenly we will go on a run.

 

[COYBL25]

Will get battered by Lyon.
Will get battered by Arsenal.
Fellas on the pitch being restrained by stewards from chinning him after Lacazette bags his 4th.

Booed out of the club and sacked Sunday night.

Unsworth caretaker, and we knock Chelsea out of the cup.. and suddenly we will go on a run.

Get to the bookies quick mate

 

[4737carlin]

Got a feeling in my water that the late penalty last week will be our Oxford moment.

Either that or this bloody water infection is back.

To be honest mate we have been having Oxford moments for the last 25 years and none of them worked out!!

 

[Lanolin]

I was actually replying to someone else's post who said Moyes came 5th without a striker. I even stated in my post that I believe DCL should be playing as the main striker, as out of all those ones you mentioned, he's the only one who has the physical and technical abilities to hold the ball up.


I see your point with the smokescreen but I don't agree it's the same thing as we saw under Martinez. With RM in charge you could see that every time we went forward we committed too many people and if the ball broke to one of the opposition we were very vulnerable. I remember we beat Sunderland 6-2 and Big Sam came out after and said it was never a 6-2 game, if they'd have taken chances at a key moment they'd likely have won, and he wasn't wrong, we were gifting sides loads of chances every game cos the side was so open, I felt nervous if we won a corner! We didn't actually create loads of chances either, cos we'd get to the corner flag and then play it backwards. There were massive fundamental flaws with RM's system and it was obvious he needed to go as soon as the Christmas of his second season.


I just don't see that with Koeman's side. He's built a side that is fairly difficult to break down. He realises we can't compete with the top sides by trying to out-football them, so he tried to build a side to out-work them, while at the same time having enough quality to beat the lesser sides. It's not that bad a plan as a starting point (obviously over time you’d hope to improve on it). I seem to remember Walsh talking about potential tfr targets at Leicester and saying it’s about what players do off the ball, so I guess he’s onboard as well, if not even driving it in terms of recruitment. They're hoping for a solid back 4, a player who can sit in front, break up the play and receive the ball from the defence and start attacks, a central midfielder who can act as a press and press the opposition whenever they have it, and a no. 10 who can provide service for a target man. Then you’ve got a pacey wide man as an outlet and to force sides back, and a wide player who can cut inside and provide quality as well as being good at set pieces etc. The full backs are meant to provide the width. It’s not how I’d set my side up, but I can see there is a plan there at least. It’s not dissimilar to Moyes’ Everton set up in fairness. Again I’d personally prefer more pace and athleticism throughout the side. You could see Spurs last night, they competed with Madrid cos they’ve got a hard working side who can go for 90 minutes and cover the ground so quickly and have a physical strength, all of which made up for a mis-match in the quality of the two sides. This is where Everton have gone wrong for so many years, I’m sick of seeing a team of average athletes trying to compete with better footballers and athletes.


The problem arises when certain areas let you down. Ashley Williams is either carrying a knock (I notice he tends to have heavy strapping on his back quite a lot) or is finished. He’s been awful, and can’t move his legs quick enough. Coleman was the attacking full back and he’s been injured. Martina who was brought in as cover is awful, for whatever reason he doesn’t seem to quite trust Kenny yet. Schneiderlin has been poor as well, making basic errors that have led to goals, McCarthy is never fit as I believe he is meant to play the role Gueye has been playing, as when he did for a brief moment last season he did it very effectively. Bolasie the pacey outlet is injured, and we have no apparent striker who can act as a target man. He’s playing Rooney all the time, as I think he also over-played Barry, because IMO he wants an experienced player on his side in the dressing room (a throwback to his Valencia days). Rooney is way too ill-disciplined to play as the centre forward. Then you’ve got players who are struggling to settle like Sigurdsson/Sandro etc. and it’s producing some proper dire football. Add to that a very difficult fixture list at the start of the season, trying to play twice a week as well as facing last year’s top 6, and it’s a perfect storm.


Having said that I think we start games decently in the main, but once we don’t score when we’re on top you can see the nervousness run right throughout the side and we fall apart. This IMO is cos we have to work too hard to score a goal, it was the same issue Moyes had which was why he brought in Mirallas as the outlet. If it’s so difficult to score goals, then players know they can’t really afford to make mistakes because it’s unlikely we’ll score once the opposition go in front, let alone score twice. We really need to score the first goal in a game at the minute. Give the lads something to hold on to and build upon. For a side which now contains ‘so called leaders’ (Captain of Wales, Iceland, Ex-England, Everton) we’re amazingly weak mentally.


I said it before but Koeman needed that striker and left sided defender. He demanded them and that’s what has caused the problems. For me he’s a more emotional manager than he appears, that’s why he goes on weird runs of negative form and then Championship winning form. Football is all about momentum. If we had have brought quality in those two positions then I think we’d be looking a whole lot better. A first XI in the style I mentioned earlier of Pickford, Coleman, Keane, LCB, Baines, Schneiderlin, McCarthy/Gueye, Rooney, Sigurdsson, Bolasie and a Striker is a very decent side, if you have that quality in the important positions.


Now I guess you can counter that and say we didn’t get them and he should get the best out of what he has, and I agree with that. But I honestly don’t see it as his fault we didn’t get them, and I think it’d be foolish to get rid of him now, as I believe he still has the dressing room (cos we’re starting games well) and we’re not that far away from being a very decent outfit. Last season was like a breath of fresh air going the game, especially compared to the two previous seasons. I don’t think we should throw that away because of reasons which aren’t entirely down to the manager.

I get what you're saying, and you make a good case. I don't agree though.

I don't really see how we can say Koeman has built a side that's difficult to break down. In our last 17 league games we've kept 3 clean sheets and conceded 27 goals. In Martinez's last 17 games we kept 4 and conceded 24. Just let that sink in.

The confidence argument doesn't wash for me either. We went into the Limassol game on the back of consecutive victories, went ahead and led with a couple of minutes to go, against a very poor side who were down to 10 men. And yet we still conceded. How can we be lacking confidence in that situation? It doesn't add up, unless we're just looking for a theory to explain something which seems too ridiculous to comprehend.

Which games would you say we've started well? I'd say we started OK against Burnley, City was good, and Spurs was ok for a while. The rest I'd say we've started very very poorly, and have only improved (if at all) after making changes. The starts against Chelsea, United, Limassol and Atalanta were all absolutely terrible and made it very difficult for us to get any sort of foothold. As you say, we keep conceding the first goal, which is not usually seen as a hallmark of a good start in my experience.

I keep hearing that Koeman wants us to be a side that out works teams and presses constantly, but 15 months in he still hasn't managed to implement it. How is that possible? We're talking about the absolute basics here, this isn't a footballing revolution, just a wish to see a side which basically runs around a lot and does the simple things well. 12 months ago we were having the exact same conversations about him wanting more pressing and workrate, he's replaced virtually the entire side, had a full pre season with them and guess what? They're still not doing it.

It's awful to watch, and brings us very few points, so I for one have run out of patience.

 

[MickA]

I get what you're saying, and you make a good case. I don't agree though.

I don't really see how we can say Koeman has built a side that's difficult to break down. In our last 17 league games we've kept 3 clean sheets and conceded 27 goals. In Martinez's last 17 games we kept 4 and conceded 24. Just let that sink in.

The confidence argument doesn't wash for me either. We went into the Limassol game on the back of consecutive victories, went ahead and led with a couple of minutes to go, against a very poor side who were down to 10 men. And yet we still conceded. How can we be lacking confidence in that situation? It doesn't add up, unless we're just looking for a theory to explain something which seems too ridiculous to comprehend.

Which games would you say we've started well? I'd say we started OK against Burnley, City was good, and Spurs was ok for a while. The rest I'd say we've started very very poorly, and have only improved (if at all) after making changes. The starts against Chelsea, United, Limassol and Atalanta were all absolutely terrible and made it very difficult for us to get any sort of foothold. As you say, we keep conceding the first goal, which is not usually seen as a hallmark of a good start in my experience.

I keep hearing that Koeman wants us to play a side that out works teams and presses constantly, but 15 months in he still hasn't managed to implement it. How is that possible? We're talking about the absolute basics here, this isn't a footballing revolution, just a wish to see a side which basically runs around a lot and does the simple things well. 12 months ago we were having the exact conversations about him wanting more pressing and workrate, he's replaced virtually the entire side, had a full pre season with them and guess what? They're still not doing it.

It's awful to watch, and brings us very few points, so I for one have run out of patience.

He can't motivate that set of players. From the outside it looks like they have lost faith in him.

One thing we lost with the Barry sale was a very intelligent passer of the ball and often forwards too. That hasn't been replaced.

 

[Seathestars]

Will get battered by Lyon.
Will get battered by Arsenal.
Fellas on the pitch being restrained by stewards from chinning him after Lacazette bags his 4th.

Booed out of the club and sacked Sunday night.

Unsworth caretaker, and we knock Chelsea out of the cup.. and suddenly we will go on a run.

Love your vision mate, I wouldn't mind seeing the back of him.

 

[Ihaters]

the more you think about it, the keeping of that moron kenwright around and his tanned lap dog, makes me think moshiri's ambition may not be real

Not convinced the mangers lack of any idea how to set up a team, and teams sudden inability to play football is Kenwright's fault tbh

 

[Rudolf Hucker]

He can't motivate that set of players. From the outside it looks like they have lost faith in him.

One thing we lost with the Barry sale was a very intelligent passer of the ball and often forwards too. That hasn't been replaced.

Correct. That sometimes happens when a new manager comes in with new ideas, but he’s signed half this squad. He can’t even motivate players he's brought in himself!!!

 

[Rudolf Hucker]

Not convinced the mangers lack of any idea how to set up a team, and teams sudden inability to play football is Kenwright's fault tbh

Doesn’t matter what business you’re in, standards have to be set from the top. Any serious board would have made changes after that Atalanta debacle. Koeman & his cronies are laughing all the way to the bank.

We need a complete clearout from the board down.

 

[MikeH72]

No comparison. We always played football under Martinez, but shot ourselves in the foot with defensive cock ups, Tim Howard brain farts & missed penalties. Koeman has sent £200M & we're playing the worst football since Walter Smith.

No we didn't mate. Do you not remember half the games from the Martinez era, games like Arsenal 0-2 where we couldn't string two passes together, United at home when we got battered, the 0-0 Derby at Goodison when we were terrified of crossing the half way line. Absolute revisionism to say we "always" played football.

 

[COYBL25]

No we didn't mate. Do you not remember half the games from the Martinez era, games like Arsenal 0-2 where we couldn't string two passes together, United at home when we got battered, the 0-0 Derby at Goodison when we were terrified of crossing the half way line. Absolute revisionism to say we "always" played football.

I think it's safe to say that both Martinez and Koeman had good first seasons, that then fizzled out.

Koeman has just fizzled out much quicker than Martinez and from which you can only draw the conclusion, that the end will be the same for Koeman.

 

[Rudolf Hucker]

No we didn't mate. Do you not remember half the games from the Martinez era, games like Arsenal 0-2 where we couldn't string two passes together, United at home when we got battered, the 0-0 Derby at Goodison when we were terrified of crossing the half way line. Absolute revisionism to say we "always" played football.

So we disagree. Martinez didn’t miss the penalty v West Ham that would have sealed the win or the one at Wembley v ManU. Or give that atrocious call v Man City that knocked us out. He did pick Tim Howard, so he’s to blame for that.

Anyway, if you think it was a bad then as it is now, you’re we’ll just have to disagree.