Everton and Martinez are to blame should Lukaku leave

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davek said:
But that makes little sense to me. We're scoring goals by the bucket loads and the problem is not systemic it's all about defenders doing proper defending, and, as we're told umpteen times per day, we have international defenders capable of doing it. So where would be the requirement for more personnel and restructuring?
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Sorry mate I don't get this, I think it's a double standard here, Martinez's system is getting the credit for all our good attacking play and all our defenders are being hung out to dry as letting the system down. You could easily position the opposite here and say the system is flawed but fabulous attacking talents like Barkley and Lukaku individually make the front end work and would in any team. I've seen @Zatara articulate a similar argument along the lines of 'the attack and midfield is sorted, just the defence now once he gets his own players'.

I think we could have whoever we want at the back and it wouldn't make a significant difference. Indeed this has been proven over the last 2 seasons. Distin was axed, Stones came in, then Alcaraz took a turn, then Jags went out, this season it's been Jags and Stones, Stones and Mori, Mori and Jags. No difference. No matter the personell the errors continue. We've had Galloway and Browning at full back, Baines and Coleman, Oviedo, not one has looked comfortable there for the past 20 months. Then attention turned to the goalkeeper. Tim Howard was undoubtedly past his best and needed dropping but despite Robles being a better keeper the results have not picked up. We have stayed flatlining at around 30% win percentage for the past two seasons.

Out of all those defensive players you have the whole range. Top class footballers in Baines and Stones, no nonsense defenders in Mori Jags Coleman, experienced pros, young players, attacking fullbacks, defensive ones, centrebacks who can play it out, centrebacks who go long. Martinez has deployed every combination of them but with no change. These are international defenders that would be at home in any decent side in this league.

So I suggest instead that Martinez's system is simply imbalanced. We have no creativity in central midfield so we need it on the flanks, this forces him to play wide players with no defensive discipline such as Kone and Deulofeu, add this to a front two who don't pressure the ball and a midfield pairing where only one is mobile enough to do so and you can see where the problems lie. At times earlier this season McCarthy would be the only player out of the front 6 pressurising the ball. Easy pickings for decent opposition. This then means anytime our full backs overlap they are taking huge gambles. With the ball the system works, you have four attacking players effectively with free roles, and two full backs charging forward without hesitation (all often on the counter). Without the ball though there is no system, quite simply it's just 'leave it to the defenders'. That's not close to good enough at this level where any decent team attacks and defends from 1-11. Martinez has hung good players out to dry. He's probably cost the three lads at the back their Euro places in the 11 (if not the squad), and Coleman's stock has plummeted massively.
 

Pullis made me laugh when he said we should be competing for top 4 with our squad after they bummed us at home. Looking at how it's worked out this season I wouldn't be far off disagreeing with him really. It will make me sad if the Beast moves on this summer, I feel we could take our relationship further.
 
The Esk said:
It's very clear Dave, Martinez does not have all the skills to manage this great club of ours. So whether it's this squad or an enhanced squad it makes no difference, I don't want him here.

He has skills, he's not all bad, but he's lacking in so many areas he's never going to cut it.

With a management team that can convince Lukaku of meeting his CL ambitions and an enhanced squad, perhaps we can keep hold of Lukaku. We definitely won't though if Martinez stays in place.
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This, all day long. The club is at a massive crossroads I feel, we stumble on with what we've got and become a regular bottom half club, or we show some real ambition and start aspiring to our once proud motto.
 
blue61 said:
This, all day long. The club is at a massive crossroads I feel, we stumble on with what we've got and become a regular bottom half club, or we show some real ambition and start aspiring to our once proud motto.
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The retirement of Ferguson, City's wealth and the to money have created a PL environment where there is no such thing as the top 4 any more. 2 of the old big 4 are guaranteed not to be in the CL next season. Even their old fall back option of just throwing money at it is not working. No team can now guarantee sustained CL football so it makes it more difficult for them to get the world's best world beaters like Bale Suarez Neymar Lewandowski etc. They are going for players like Depay and Sterling for big money, shrewd scouting bringing in players like Mahrez and Payet can easily match and surpass that quality. Leicester and Spurs have shown that a talented side harnessed by a very good manager no longer means 'best of the rest' as Moyes Redknapp Robson and ONeill used to find. It now means CL qualification and even the chance of a title.

So the real question is, whilst this window of PL certainty remains open, do we want to show some ambition and potentially put ourselves in the frame to compete for the title, or do we want to give a manager who is on track for two bottom half finished yet more time? Until a new order is established every year we don't act is a potential title challenge passed up. This year has changed football, nothing is off the table any more. Martinez has to go, we cannot waste this chance.
 

Saint Domingo said:
Sorry mate I don't get this, I think it's a double standard here, Martinez's system is getting the credit for all our good attacking play and all our defenders are being hung out to dry as letting the system down. You could easily position the opposite here and say the system is flawed but fabulous attacking talents like Barkley and Lukaku individually make the front end work and would in any team. I've seen @Zatara articulate a similar argument along the lines of 'the attack and midfield is sorted, just the defence now once he gets his own players'.

I think we could have whoever we want at the back and it wouldn't make a significant difference. Indeed this has been proven over the last 2 seasons. Distin was axed, Stones came in, then Alcaraz took a turn, then Jags went out, this season it's been Jags and Stones, Stones and Mori, Mori and Jags. No difference. No matter the personell the errors continue. We've had Galloway and Browning at full back, Baines and Coleman, Oviedo, not one has looked comfortable there for the past 20 months. Then attention turned to the goalkeeper. Tim Howard was undoubtedly past his best and needed dropping but despite Robles being a better keeper the results have not picked up. We have stayed flatlining at around 30% win percentage for the past two seasons.

Out of all those defensive players you have the whole range. Top class footballers in Baines and Stones, no nonsense defenders in Mori Jags Coleman, experienced pros, young players, attacking fullbacks, defensive ones, centrebacks who can play it out, centrebacks who go long. Martinez has deployed every combination of them but with no change. These are international defenders that would be at home in any decent side in this league.

So I suggest instead that Martinez's system is simply imbalanced. We have no creativity in central midfield so we need it on the flanks, this forces him to play wide players with no defensive discipline such as Kone and Deulofeu, add this to a front two who don't pressure the ball and a midfield pairing where only one is mobile enough to do so and you can see where the problems lie. At times earlier this season McCarthy would be the only player out of the front 6 pressurising the ball. Easy pickings for decent opposition. This then means anytime our full backs overlap they are taking huge gambles. With the ball the system works, you have four attacking players effectively with free roles, and two full backs charging forward without hesitation (all often on the counter). Without the ball though there is no system, quite simply it's just 'leave it to the defenders'. That's not close to good enough at this level where any decent team attacks and defends from 1-11. Martinez has hung good players out to dry. He's probably cost the three lads at the back their Euro places in the 11 (if not the squad), and Coleman's stock has plummeted massively.
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A very good set of observations, especially the set-up & personnel at the back, where - no matter who plays - mistakes are rife.

That and the alarmingly rapid decline of both full-backs' form.

A tad unfair on kone, who, when played wide left, has come back to help his left-back out on several occasions (Away at city early on this season springs to mind) but other than that, nothing there to disagree with.

And yes, martinez has overseen all of this and done very little to remedy it.
 
Great article. Can't really argue with any of that.

Perhaps winning the FA Cup and bringing in some new actually good players will convince him to stay.

But it's all quiet on the Moshiri front and I can't see us having the bottle to win the Cup.
 
davek said:
It's true though mate, we've always played in the Champions League and won cups; it's only Martinez who's spoiling the party coming in and failing to get Champions League football and failing to win cups. If only we got rid of him it could all go back to normal again.
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Not getting in the CL isn't abnormal. This year should have been our best chance in a long time though.

Finishing bottom half two seasons in a row certainly IS abnormal
 
Saint Domingo said:
Sorry mate I don't get this, I think it's a double standard here, Martinez's system is getting the credit for all our good attacking play and all our defenders are being hung out to dry as letting the system down. You could easily position the opposite here and say the system is flawed but fabulous attacking talents like Barkley and Lukaku individually make the front end work and would in any team. I've seen @Zatara articulate a similar argument along the lines of 'the attack and midfield is sorted, just the defence now once he gets his own players'.

I think we could have whoever we want at the back and it wouldn't make a significant difference. Indeed this has been proven over the last 2 seasons. Distin was axed, Stones came in, then Alcaraz took a turn, then Jags went out, this season it's been Jags and Stones, Stones and Mori, Mori and Jags. No difference. No matter the personell the errors continue. We've had Galloway and Browning at full back, Baines and Coleman, Oviedo, not one has looked comfortable there for the past 20 months. Then attention turned to the goalkeeper. Tim Howard was undoubtedly past his best and needed dropping but despite Robles being a better keeper the results have not picked up. We have stayed flatlining at around 30% win percentage for the past two seasons.

Out of all those defensive players you have the whole range. Top class footballers in Baines and Stones, no nonsense defenders in Mori Jags Coleman, experienced pros, young players, attacking fullbacks, defensive ones, centrebacks who can play it out, centrebacks who go long. Martinez has deployed every combination of them but with no change. These are international defenders that would be at home in any decent side in this league.

So I suggest instead that Martinez's system is simply imbalanced. We have no creativity in central midfield so we need it on the flanks, this forces him to play wide players with no defensive discipline such as Kone and Deulofeu, add this to a front two who don't pressure the ball and a midfield pairing where only one is mobile enough to do so and you can see where the problems lie. At times earlier this season McCarthy would be the only player out of the front 6 pressurising the ball. Easy pickings for decent opposition. This then means anytime our full backs overlap they are taking huge gambles. With the ball the system works, you have four attacking players effectively with free roles, and two full backs charging forward without hesitation (all often on the counter). Without the ball though there is no system, quite simply it's just 'leave it to the defenders'. That's not close to good enough at this level where any decent team attacks and defends from 1-11. Martinez has hung good players out to dry. He's probably cost the three lads at the back their Euro places in the 11 (if not the squad), and Coleman's stock has plummeted massively.
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Agree with almost all of that, except the myth that Barry is immobile.

Hasn't he covered more ground than anyone in the Premier League bar one player?
 

Whistlin' Dixie said:
A very good set of observations, especially the set-up & personnel at the back, where - no matter who plays - mistakes are rife.

That and the alarmingly rapid decline of both full-backs' form.

A tad unfair on kone, who, when played wide left, has come back to help his left-back out on several occasions (Away at city early on this season springs to mind) but other than that, nothing there to disagree with.

And yes, martinez has overseen all of this and done very little to remedy it.
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I'd buy that. I don't think either player is lazy just that the team structure is wrong. Fans love to see wide players running 40 yards following a winger back to his own goal but ultimately it's a bad sign, no wide player can keep that up all game.

Contrast that with a player like Pienaar when he played wide under Moyes. As soon as he lost the ball he was seemingly back in the perfect position, simultaneously covering his full back, his central midfielder, and covering off the passing channel to the forwards. You never ever saw him running 40 yards in a straight line backwards. That sort of positional discipline comes from hours on the training ground and players in those teams usually had it and knew their responsibilities off the ball inside out.

I'd argue only Barry knows what he should be doing off the ball (probably through his own experience) and he is often too slow to effectively carry it out. The positional discipline across the 11 is shambolic.
 
ianefc said:
Shouldn't of and shan't? What because of posters like you and Dave tell us so?

I know who's judgment I'd trust in that debate.

If you don't think we should be closer to CL than we are then you're wrong.
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Closer? Yes.
I'd say without major investment in the defence and keeping positions we are a top 10 side. Anything above that is a bonus.

The advantage is that if we invest right, we can leapfrog alot of teams who all seem yo be the same level:

Liv
Soton
Stoke
Utd
West Ham

Without investment we are just also rans with the above - not a top 4 team.
 
He's got 3 years left, we could turn round to him and say your staying another year and we are investing 100m into the squad.

If he goes we'll get a fat fee to reinvest, but I think we are well within our rights if we want to keep him another year then if he wants to leave he can.
 

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