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ECHO Comment: "Fears of Witch-hunt Against Liverpool FC"

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Moneyball hahaha
I'd forgotten about that one. That was the season they'd bought Sturridge and Coutinho and thought they had re-invented the whole transfer system. Buy cheap and get value for money. Started going a bit Pete Tong when the next 200 million they spent was on utter garbage.
It was part of the Rodgers revolution la. Together with his philosophy and the introduction of "envelopes" as part of a larger motivational strategy. "Being Liverpool" explains it all. I advise you to watch the series a number of times until you "get it." Think the only equivalent of a complete rethink of the fundamentals can be found in the revolutionary politics of Regis Debray in South America or possibly the Chinese cultural revolution. When asked what was the outcome of spunking well over 200 million on what appeared to the unenlightened as complete dross, Comrade Rodgers answered sagely, "too soon to tell." Remember the motto of kop comrade: Next year is our year.
 

X 10000. I reckon the only time that you can apply that sort of logic to footballers is probably goalkeepers, in that you can sort of think how many points they will stop you dropping.

And that was how Clough persuaded the Forest board, (or chairman back in those days I guess), to fork out a few bob for Shilton.

And even attempting to use it on foreign players in leagues miles different that ours makes it even more pointless.
Yep, the specialization of the keeper position and it's impact on the game is probably the closest you can get to identifying statistical impacts like you could with a particular pitcher. Remember in baseball that the players really only play together as a unit when they are defending, this is also why there are a lot more statistics based around batting. In football, an individual player (apart from the keeper) is usually involved in all stages of play from defence, to transition, to attack. Further, players are part of sub-groups within the team such as the line of defence, your midfielders, and strikers and each of those units has a similar shared set of responsibilities within their sub-group.

For me the key component of the Moneyball approach is what I said in the previous post, that players must be "statistically suited to a particular playing strategy."

This is where Liverpool have failed. The American owners brought the approach with the only intention of guaranteeing a positive return on investment. They noticed that there were premiums applied to young players and to British players so they assumed that by buying promising young british players they would be able to develop them further and sell them on for a profit if they were not to be kept in the team. This led to the acquisitions of Andy Carroll, Joe Allen, Jordan Henderson, Charlie Adam, and Stewart Downing. The team didn't gel, and they were learning that the strategy was innately flawed because paying the british premium and the premium for young potential went almost entirely against the original Moneyball approach of finding players who could offer more to the team than what they were worth on the open market (and also they were crap).
 
It is a systemic problem. It's not a way of operating that's had success in the PL. The mindset here is for one person who controls all aspects of the playing side of the club. Even at a huge organisation like United that's been true - despite the undoubted power CEO's like Kenyon and Gill had. A manager has to be seen as the guvnor over here by players and supporters or they're not fully respected. That's our culture and I dont see it changing anytime soon. When a bump in the road arrives any sense that the manager isn't the architect of their own destiny increases doubts amongst players/supporters that they can hack it. It's a very corrosive environment for managers.

My biggest doubt about Klopp remains, however, that his type of game is not all that in an English setting. The game in this country has never been short of perspiration. Doing what Klopp is asking Liverpool players to do, effort wise, is minimum over here. It's what we've always been good at. Playing the game at pace and lots of energy is our game. He may spend, and get in good finishers especially, and climb the table a bit. Personally though I dont see him having the savvy to make Liverpool a title challenging team. His game is way too open. They'll be punished repeatedy. And it'll take years to assemble a squad anywhere near the quality of the one he had at Dortmund.
I remember this game when Utd played 100 mph football and Bayern couldn't get near them for 45 minutes.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/europe/8604742.stm
Like you said standard fayre in England but you can see how it would have worked for a spell for Klopp until teams adapted, question is did Dortmund have a plan B?
 
I looked up this moneyball idea to get a better grasp of it. Is it essentially buy low sell high, and try to buy below the market value? Because unless I'm missing something, that's what every club tries to do?
 
Have you seen the movie with brad pitt?

Give it a gander...

I looked up this moneyball idea to get a better grasp of it. Is it essentially buy low sell high, and try to buy below the market value? Because unless I'm missing something, that's what every club tries to do?
 

bobby was money balling with loans. it was genuine money ball. he worked with loans, made it work, had results, made others go mad and puplicly demanding a change to the system. true spirit of a money ball that.
kpites wouldnt know money ball even they would be hitted one in the forehead.
hp-a-bigdata-moneyball-100342006-orig.jpg
 

As usual you're all missing the point. Liverpool created moneyball in 2013 and it was the way they were going to rule the world until the FA/Mr Ferguson/UEFA/The Committee/Brendan Rodgers/Hodge/Hicks and Gillette/the Anfield pitch/Mourinho/Howard Webb/the Oil clubs/injuries/Suarez being unsettled by the media/all their best players wanting to leave/not being allowed to call opposing black players negritos/fixed draws pitting them against Ludgorets/not being allowed to bite the opposition, all conspired against them to make them the victims.
 
I looked up this moneyball idea to get a better grasp of it. Is it essentially buy low sell high, and try to buy below the market value? Because unless I'm missing something, that's what every club tries to do?
There is more to it than that, it's about finding players who offer more value statistically to your playing strategy than the competition and capitalizing on their relative market value to their value to your team.
Is this the moneyball approach? It's worked brilliantly for Brentford and I imagine it would to other clubs in the lower league. I would not use Liverpool as a common variable they r too weird
It would work much better for Brentford because it is easier to gain a larger marginal advantage at that level. The competition for players and the difference in values the teams are capable of paying are very different in terms of range between Brentford and Liverpool. Brentford has done an excellent job and as I said, if Liverpool ever were trying to implement Moneyball tactics then they went about it the wrong way.

The reason the baseball team from Moneyball was seen as so successful was because they managed to win the league by trading for guys that had lower market values, but statistically as individuals they supported an overall strategy for the team to be more competitive for each dollar spent. Now, baseball has a salary cap and a draft system like most North American sports and this is designed to ensure that each team has a reasonable chance of competing with good coaching and management. Baseball is weird though because it allows teams to pay fines if they exceed the cap, essentially allowing and encouraging the teams like the Yankees who have a bigger fan base and profits(they have their own tv channel) to use their capital to out-compete the smaller teams.
 

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