Would five at the back help defensively?

[siddharth]

How about a 7-1-2-0 formation...

Impossible... Untenable...

7-1-1-1 works though

We need a big lad for the long balls.

 

[Calvin]

Fair enough, Onana can carry the ball well and is very comfortable with the ball at his feet and does so in the current midfield the same way Doucoure arguably does when we break forward recently. However, we are heavily reliant on individual play and 'luck' for creating any chances now and that needs to change. A major hurdle for that is even if Doucoure moves into positions where he receives the ball, it feels as if our team acts as if it is not sure if we are in possession or not and that is crazy.

In this particular scenario you have suggested, I am more in favour of Garner and Onana carrying the ball together and Gana dropping in deep with Doucoure just being Doucoure.

For me, I would rather have one of the current wide players in place of Doucoure but Doucoure seems to offer something only Doucoure offers to Dyche's gameplay that we have not figured out what it is lest we forget those 3 matches during the red card last season.

i think Doucoure offers energy, running and the occasional goal. There’s just no one else in the squad to play there at the moment. But in the formation I’ve posted, 3/2/4/1. It also means that the front 5 (4/1) can press high, which Doucoure is useful for, whilst the defensive 5 (3/2) can concentrate on defending, holding their shape which hopefully would result in less of a huge gap between the backline and the press, which has been very evident and which the opposition has capitalised from in the games so far this season. With 2 sitting/holding midfielders it should make it harder for them.
If Garner or Gana has possession I’d expect a shape like this:

Garner. Gana
Harrison. Onana. McNeil
Doucoure. Beto

Onana would drop closer to the man in possession as would the 2 wide men, offering a passing option. Doucoure, Beto would be ahead.

 

[siddharth]

i think Doucoure offers energy, running and the occasional goal. There’s just no one else in the squad to play there at the moment. But in the formation I’ve posted, 3/2/4/1. It also means that the front 5 (4/1) can press high, which Doucoure is useful for, whilst the defensive 5 (3/2) can concentrate on defending, holding their shape which hopefully would result in less of a huge gap between the backline and the press, which has been very evident and which the opposition has capitalised on in the games so far this season. With 2 sitting/holding midfielders it should make it harder for them.
If Garner or Gana has possession I’d expect a shape like this:

Garner. Gana
Harrison. Onana. McNeil
Doucoure. Beto

Onana would drop closer to the man in possession as would the 2 wide men. Doucoure, Beto would be ahead.

umm... *sweats profusely* umm... Are these city tactics from last season? Surely you are not suggesting we play like Man City... Even they only use it against BIG teams because it puts ridiculous pressure on the two holding midfielders... And is Doucoure the Gundogan in this team?

 

[Calvin]

umm... *sweats profusely* umm... Are these city tactics from last season? Surely you are not suggesting we play like Man City... Even they only use it against BIG teams because it puts ridiculous pressure on the two holding midfielders... And is Doucoure the Gundogan in this team?

I think it’s the best shape for the players available. I’m not saying the team will suddenly become Man City if they adopt it. But I think it’s the best formation for getting the best players on the pitch which gives the team balance.

 

[gedefc]

i think Doucoure offers energy, running and the occasional goal. There’s just no one else in the squad to play there at the moment. But in the formation I’ve posted, 3/2/4/1. It also means that the front 5 (4/1) can press high, which Doucoure is useful for, whilst the defensive 5 (3/2) can concentrate on defending, holding their shape which hopefully would result in less of a huge gap between the backline and the press, which has been very evident and which the opposition has capitalised from in the games so far this season. With 2 sitting/holding midfielders it should make it harder for them.
If Garner or Gana has possession I’d expect a shape like this:

Garner. Gana
Harrison. Onana. McNeil
Doucoure. Beto

Onana would drop closer to the man in possession as would the 2 wide men, offering a passing option. Doucoure, Beto would be ahead.

Think Danjuma could be better off Beto, Doucoure or Gana would have to drop out

 

[Calvin]

Think Danjuma could be better off Beto, Doucoure or Gana would have to drop out

I’d have Doucoure in for his running power, his work rate, especially for pressing

 

[Sadken]

Lewin and beto up front with Harrison and McNeil putting crosses in sounds really exciting .

 

[Calvin]

Lewin and beto up front with Harrison and McNeil putting crosses in sounds really exciting .

I don’t think Everton can play Beto and DCL at the same time without the rest of the team suffering, being unbalanced

 

[siddharth]

I think it’s the best shape for the players available. I’m not saying the team will suddenly become Man City if they adopt it. But I think it’s the best formation for getting the best players on the pitch which gives the team balance.

Ohhhhhhhh... This is a bold statement and rattled me more than I care to admit. Also we are Everton mate, we are currently not able to make even 4-4-1-1 work, I don't think a formation/shape necessarily dictates our gameplay tactics which is vital for in-game performance. Still very bold...

I would rather we modeled ourselves on Atletico Madrid (We can play DCL+Beto, think Forlan+Cavani) in clutch situations than City in my opinion. Ultimately, I think we need babier steps for our team to change.

 

[Calvin]

Ohhhhhhhh... This is a bold statement and rattled me more than I care to admit. Also we are Everton mate, we are currently not able to make even 4-4-1-1 work, I don't think a formation/shape necessarily dictates our gameplay tactics which is vital for in-game performance. Still very bold...

I would rather we modeled ourselves on Atletico Madrid (We can play DCL+Beto, think Forlan+Cavani) in clutch situations than City in my opinion. Ultimately, I think we need babier steps for our team to change.

Obviously i don't know the instructions given to each player, but Onana for example is already playing the way described above, in the present formation and its not working out too well because he often leaves a big gap when he moves forward, roams. So put someone to sit behind him. Doucoure is Doucoure, he can only play one way, so try to get the best out of him, again, by putting someone to sit behind him. So he can go press and be Doucoure without leaving a big gap between the midfield and defence. The two sitting midfielders, Gana and Garner would have to be disciplined and show a good reading of the game.
McNeil can cover the left side for 90 minutes, he's a machine, if Harrison can do that on the right, you have balance. that just leaves Beto to do his thing and the back 3 to defend. We are trying to put the players in a position that allows them to play their natural game and optimises their natural attributes. If you can do that, i think you will get better results than filling their heads with instructions. It may seem complicated but i think it would be simpler because it allows the players to play their natural game. With the exception of Garner and Gana, they will have to show some discipline and reading of the game, not get dragged out of position.

 

[roy vernon]

5 at the back means Keane playing every week. I'm out.

 

[Mikey O]

We don't have five decent players to play five at the back so the question is redundant.

Sharpen up the defensive midfielders and things will improve

 

[Swartzy]

Just the thought of 5 at the back, scares me.

the only thing that will do is speed up our downfall and Dyche's Demise....
( Well maybe not the second one knowing us )

No different then lamps 3-5-2

 

[siddharth]

Obviously i don't know the instructions given to each player, but Onana for example is already playing the way described above, in the present formation and its not working out too well because he often leaves a big gap when he moves forward, roams. So put someone to sit behind him. Doucoure is Doucoure, he can only play one way, so try to get the best out of him, again, by putting someone to sit behind him. So he can go press and be Doucoure without leaving a big gap between the midfield and defence. The two sitting midfielders, Gana and Garner would have to be disciplined and show a good reading of the game.
McNeil can cover the left side for 90 minutes, he's a machine, if Harrison can do that on the right, you have balance. that just leaves Beto to do his thing and the back 3 to defend. We are trying to put the players in a position that allows them to play their natural game and optimises their natural attributes. If you can do that, i think you will get better results than filling their heads with instructions. It may seem complicated but i think it would be simpler because it allows the players to play their natural game. With the exception of Garner and Gana, they will have to show some discipline and reading of the game, not get dragged out of position.

I agree with the instructions part and we are playing a vastly different game right now, for instance, with 4 at the back. I am simply trying to point out that Doucoure is no Gundogan and neither is Onana a KDB, just as we are not Man City. If Gana or Garner commit the tactical fouls that Rodri does in a match, we'd be down to 9 people by half-time. Onana carrying the ball alone would be closed down faster than any of us can say gegenpress. Maybe Onana and Iwobi might have worked somehow. Doucoure's energy is pointless if we don't know if we are attacking or defending when he has the ball. During recent games, the only semblance of control was achieved when Gana came forward from his deeper role. Even in City's team last season Rodri, Stones, and Gundogan sometimes shared the responsibility for that deeper role. I'm just surprised with our current naivity cause Dyche's Youtube video was literally about positional play.
But what really bothers me is this usage of 'balance' to argue for 'symmetry', cause I did not understand the exclusion of DCL earlier. I get it now with the McNiel and Harrison argument, but I think, of course, this is a personal taste, I like somebody like Moyes for instance who achieved balance by putting together Baines (Wingback)/Pienaar (Playmaker) and Hibbert (Fullback)/Mirallas (Inside Forward) on the wings. And this is also something Dyche may need to improve on, as you said with players and their natural game and such. You cannot imagine my disappointment when the combination of Myko/McNiel and Coleman/Iwobi regurgitated such awkward and cookie-cutter performances.
Finally, my opinion is that our strongest starting 11 when fit into any shape should include DCL doing DCL things and not Doucoure doing Doucoure things. I'm not sold on the whole 3 at the back until our tactics and people improve.

 

[GoldenToffee]

I honestly think there are three things that can immediately help out in defence:
1. Decide on Young or Mykolenko and stick with them
2. Bring McNeil and Harrison back asap and you should see our full backs improve right away with midfield players that are well aware of their defensive responsibilities
3. Maintain where possible, a consistent back four

This can all hopefully be done right away and I am confident we'll reap the rewards for it.

No need for any back five.