What's more important the Squad or the first 11?

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steken1

Player Valuation: £70m
No doubt we have a stronger squad than we had last season. Plenty of cover all over the pitch, bar CM, which hasn't always been the case.

As we all know Money's always been tight and carrying a small squad but having a decent first 11 is generally how we've got round it.

If the papers are to be believed Fellaini will leave before the end of the window and we'll get a couple of players in with that money.

It's highly unlikely we'll get a better player than him. IMO looking at the first 11 without him in it I'd say we'd have a worse side that the one we had last season.

So my question is this. Will we gain more points through having a better squad, but a worse first 11?

I'll give my opinion now. We're going to get less points weakening the first 11 but strengthening the squad.
 
I agree, thats why i dont understand people saying 'well McCarthy isnt great but i'd take him for 8-10 million'.

Just translates as 'i'm happy for our massively important central midfield to be very mediocre for the next 5 years'
 
I'll give my opinion now. We're going to get less points weakening the first 11 but strengthening the squad.
Agreed. Given our financial situation I think it makes sense to focus on first 11 as much as possible. You certainly don't ignore squad and improve it when possible but first 11 should be the focus.

Since a lot of people tend to think our previous failings were tactical and mindset related it makes sense to keep this one aspect of how we were ran and have RM install his hopefully superior tactics/mindset into a similar setup. No need to bin every aspect of prior management just for the sake of change.

So far (big emphasis on "so far" given the hell we are about to endure until Tuesday) he's managed to improve the squad (a little) without spending much money and keep the first 11 strong.
 
Squad, definitely.

You can do well and finish mid- to upper-table with a good starting eleven, but you only finish in European places with a good squad. The season is just too long to go with just a core group of good players.
 

Squad, definitely.

You can do well and finish mid- to upper-table with a good starting eleven, but you only finish in European places with a good squad. The season is just too long to go with just a core group of good players.


Yeah, just look at the last few seasons. We've had a fantastic first 11, capable of giving anyone a rattle, but ran out of steam in the final stages of the season.

We need a squad.
 
Squad, definitely.

You can do well and finish mid- to upper-table with a good starting eleven, but you only finish in European places with a good squad. The season is just too long to go with just a core group of good players.

I agree with that to an extent tubes but you've still got to have the quality in the first 11 to get the european places in the first place.

Sunderland, Villa, QPR, the RS and plenty of other sides have gone the 'squad full of squad players' route and it's done none of them any favours.
 
No doubt we have a stronger squad than we had last season. Plenty of cover all over the pitch, bar CM, which hasn't always been the case.

As we all know Money's always been tight and carrying a small squad but having a decent first 11 is generally how we've got round it.

If the papers are to be believed Fellaini will leave before the end of the window and we'll get a couple of players in with that money.

It's highly unlikely we'll get a better player than him. IMO looking at the first 11 without him in it I'd say we'd have a worse side that the one we had last season.

So my question is this. Will we gain more points through having a better squad, but a worse first 11?

I'll give my opinion now. We're going to get less points weakening the first 11 but strengthening the squad.

There's more factors at play here though - you have to consider the progress or decline in every other player too. Take Barkley for instance - he's at an age where he is likely to improve in leaps and bounds over the next 18 months and really blossom into an elite player. Stones also shows signs of becoming a big deal, as does Oviedo, and Coleman is on the verge of greatness from what we've seen over the last year. Mirallas just needs consistency, which will come with prem experience.

On the other hand, Osman and Pienaar are on the decline due to age; Distin simply CANNOT last much longer (and I say that as someone who's Everton shirt has Distin printed on the back), there are serious questions about all of our strikers, Gibson and Hibbert are only good for about 25 games a season and the likes of Naismith are not top-six material.

What can solve the problem of quality in depth? Money, and ONLY money. Be it invested in a youth setup that starts churning out at a quality and pace DeBeers would be proud of, or invested WISELY in the transfer market.

I would disagree with the OP about cover in the squad - we need another body at RB to replace Hibbert, another DM to cover / replace Gibson, another CM to replace Osman, another RM to cover Mirallas and another LB or LM depending on where we see Oviedo playing most of his minutes. Some of these can wait another season, but ALL need addressing within 18 - 24 months.

In addition to bolstering cover, we need to look at upgrading areas where there is currently good numbers but poor quality - Striker and, contentiously speaking, CB. Alcaraz is an unknown, Stones looks good based on no more than three or four games, Distin may hang up his boots in the near future and Heitinga has been looking to leave for some time.

Yes, selling Felli will weaken us in the short term, and we will lose a few points. However, if selling him means we can upgrade three players in positions very thin on cover, it is what must be done. Spurs for instance are doing EXACTLY the right thing in selling Bale - the cash he will bring in outweighs his individual contribution to the team. This is actually also a sound argument for shifting Baines too, even though I don't want to see him go.

Improving the strength and depth of the squad in the medium to long term is more important than the results gaine dby maintaining a strong first XI in the short term. But you can't just sell every good player, you have to sell the ones that attract bids far in excess of their individual value to our squad - that's how you generate extra funds without gutting the squad.
 
If it was clear cut black and white, then the first 11.

In a black and white world, a decent squad keeps you above water, I'd go as far as saying without Fellaini and Baines (and NO arrivals) we're no better off than some of the other's around us really. I'd feel like we were in limbo if we had an average squad, never really going anywhere.

A strong first 11 gets you a cup or the chance to take advantage of others slipups when everyone is fully fit.
 

The first 11, for sure. You can get around the squad thing like Moyes has for a while by having players who can play multiple positions. If you don't have class in the first 11, you're not going anywhere.
 
The squad is more important in general but only when you're talking about swapping players that are at the same level, broadly speaking - one good prem player for two average prem players, that sort of thing.

Different story when you're looking at losing a world class player like Fellaini. Their influence is disproportionate and you can't make up for them with squad strengthening. They make average players around them play so much better. I have no real idea how good McCarthy is, but even if he's an upper echelon prem player he won't be filling Fellaini's boots any time soon. The Belgian just does too many things too well.
 
I agree with that to an extent tubes but you've still got to have the quality in the first 11 to get the european places in the first place.

Sunderland, Villa, QPR, the RS and plenty of other sides have gone the 'squad full of squad players' route and it's done none of them any favours.

I'd say the difference between the sides challenging for honours is that they can have both a strong first team and a strong squad. Often there's not a huge amount of difference between their reserves and their starters. Of course, you have some players like your RVPs and Toure's that are very hard to replace, but otherwise most have got 20 odd really good players to choose from.

Anyway, back to the question of Felli. Spurs and Bale are perhaps the nearest comparison. Bale won them a lot of points last season, so even though they're bringing in a lot of talent with that £80 million, will they be able to win games as Bale did? They've certainly strengthened a few areas of their squad with that windfall, but whether any can replicate his standout performances is another matter.

When the best teams by squad players they're purely doing it to offset any lost points from fatigue. We're trying to offset lost points by match winners. Tough ask.
 
There's more factors at play here though - you have to consider the progress or decline in every other player too. Take Barkley for instance - he's at an age where he is likely to improve in leaps and bounds over the next 18 months and really blossom into an elite player. Stones also shows signs of becoming a big deal, as does Oviedo, and Coleman is on the verge of greatness from what we've seen over the last year. Mirallas just needs consistency, which will come with prem experience.

On the other hand, Osman and Pienaar are on the decline due to age; Distin simply CANNOT last much longer (and I say that as someone who's Everton shirt has Distin printed on the back), there are serious questions about all of our strikers, Gibson and Hibbert are only good for about 25 games a season and the likes of Naismith are not top-six material.

What can solve the problem of quality in depth? Money, and ONLY money. Be it invested in a youth setup that starts churning out at a quality and pace DeBeers would be proud of, or invested WISELY in the transfer market.

I would disagree with the OP about cover in the squad - we need another body at RB to replace Hibbert, another DM to cover / replace Gibson, another CM to replace Osman, another RM to cover Mirallas and another LB or LM depending on where we see Oviedo playing most of his minutes. Some of these can wait another season, but ALL need addressing within 18 - 24 months.

In addition to bolstering cover, we need to look at upgrading areas where there is currently good numbers but poor quality - Striker and, contentiously speaking, CB. Alcaraz is an unknown, Stones looks good based on no more than three or four games, Distin may hang up his boots in the near future and Heitinga has been looking to leave for some time.

Yes, selling Felli will weaken us in the short term, and we will lose a few points. However, if selling him means we can upgrade three players in positions very thin on cover, it is what must be done. Spurs for instance are doing EXACTLY the right thing in selling Bale - the cash he will bring in outweighs his individual contribution to the team. This is actually also a sound argument for shifting Baines too, even though I don't want to see him go.

Improving the strength and depth of the squad in the medium to long term is more important than the results gaine dby maintaining a strong first XI in the short term. But you can't just sell every good player, you have to sell the ones that attract bids far in excess of their individual value to our squad - that's how you generate extra funds without gutting the squad.

The bit in bold is a little OTT for me. I get the impression you're thinking we should carry a Spurs/RS style squad size, without the budget to go with it.

As a rule I've got no problem with us recycling players. When done right it's the only decent strategy for a club like ours to be towards the top of the table.

The problem is if it's done wrong you can be a Sunderland in ten minutes flat, with no assets of real value. We seem to be taking the route of a bigger squad which is a bit at odds with the formula that served us well for a long time.

Our transfer dealing so far has been about quantity more than quality. I hope we go for the latter if Fellaini goes.
 

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