Who is to blame? [The Athletic video]

[Nymzee]

Eloquent - does this sort of thing sum up the problem??

Yes I am the reason our manager's keep failing and getting sacked. It's all on me.

 

[Legend Barry Horne]

Yes I am the reason our manager's keep failing and getting sacked. It's all on me.

You might be an example of a typical fan though...

 

[Aberblue]

At this point I have no idea what you're talking about.

Surely it's obvious - for decades now we've given long contracts to players who were near the end of their careers, or who were never going to be offered better terms elsewhere. I could name tens of players who fall into this category, from Kevin Campbell, Alessandro Pistone, Tony Hibbert, Besic, Mirallas, Baines, Garbutt among others, and now Coleman, whose contract has been extended despite him being clearly all but finished at this level. Rondon was given a two year contract when a year with an option to extend would have made more sense.

The money we've wasted on these deals must be mind boggling.

 

[Nymzee]

Surely it's obvious - for decades now we've given long contracts to players who were near the end of their careers, or who were never going to be offered better terms elsewhere. I could name tens of players who fall into this category, from Kevin Campbell, Alessandro Pistone, Tony Hibbert, Besic, Mirallas, Baines, Garbutt among others, and now Coleman, whose contract has been extended despite him being clearly all but finished at this level. Rondon was given a two year contract when a year with an option to extend would have made more sense.

The money we've wasted on these deals must be mind boggling.

Yes I get that but that wasn't what the initial discussion was about that's why I was confused. Man was just throwing tangents in everywhere.

 

[MrGrumpy]

Starts at Moshiri and goes through the entire club
Moshiri needs to remove and replace the board with football people.
Moshiri needs to stop interfering with transfers and managers.
If he wants a DOF then let him do his job

 

[evertony]

You can't make defensive signings mid season when we're hovering above the relegation zone mate but nice try.

Sorry, my error. I didn’t know there was a rule you couldn’t acquire defenders in the January window. I bow to your higher footballing intellect.
So, you don’t want us to sign a right-back in January?

Chatting bubbles.

 

[Nymzee]

Sorry, my error. I didn’t know there was a rule you couldn’t acquire defenders in the January window. I bow to your higher footballing intellect.
So, you don’t want us to sign a right-back in January?

Chatting bubbles.

But we didn't sign any defenders in January under Martinez so how can't say "if some defensive signings were made" in defense of him? We signed Niasse and Tarashaj instead.

Martinez was here, he didn't make those "shrewd defensive signings', we almost went down - he had to go.

 

[evertony]

But we didn't sign any defenders in January under Martinez so how can't say "if some defensive signings were made" in defense of him? We signed Niasse and Tarashaj instead.

Martinez was here, he didn't make those "shrewd defensive signings', we almost went down - he had to go.

I didn’t say we did. However, you suggested we can’t.

Who’s next for you after Allardyce and Benítez.....Pulis?

 

[Nymzee]

I didn’t say we did. However, you suggested we can’t.

Who’s next for you after Allardyce and Benítez.....Pulis?

You were talking about Martinez in your first post - nothing to do with Benitez and our current situation.

The fans plus agents Baines and Jagielka effectively pulled the trigger on Martinez.....and like him or loathe him we played our best football of the last 30-odd years during his tenure. A defensive coach brought in at the time and some shrewd defensive signings would have seen us in a very positive position. But hey, we’d have missed out on the glory days and sheer enjoyment of watching Koeman, Allardyce and Benítez at the helm. How very Everton.

 

[bcblue1878]

It's bizarre to say the club was a 'mess' - we've been on the edge of the top teams for a while but it's difficult to break into that. A mess surely would be bottom half, relegation candidates etc

The managers have been well supported by the club, but not by the fans through bad runs

It is inevitable that most managers will have a bad run at some stage. If you then just sack them every time at that point there's very little continuity

It’s really not bizarre at all! Since Moyes left we have had a succession of managers, all of whom of been largely supported, all of whom have bought some of their own expensive dross on long term high wage contracts - summed up by the Koeman\Walsh debacle when the pair of them were set on buying their own players without any plan in place!
Since then Allardyce, Silva, Ancelotti and now Benitez have added players, and here we are today with a squad so poor that as soon as a couple are out injured we fold like a cheap suit!
No plan in place, no bottle or leaders in a very average squad, no idea whatsoever! But you’re right it’s not a mess because Benitez says we did ok because we ran around a lot (largely chasing shadows!) the other night!
It’s a mess and has been for some time!

 

[evertony]

You were talking about Martinez in your first post - nothing to do with Benitez and our current situation.

Correct. I was talking about an opportunity lost with the dismissal of Martinez. The point about dinosaurs like Allardyce, Benítez etc is that’s what we’ve ended up with. I’d call that a huge step in the wrong direction.
We need stability with a forward-thinking manager - one who will be given time, despite the surety of bad runs, to build something. The managerial merry go round is a big part of the current issue and the blame lies equally with the Board and the fans. The board react to the fans impatience and vice versa. It’s a never ending cycle that sees teams drop into the Championship and beyond.

 

[Nymzee]

Correct. I was talking about an opportunity lost with the dismissal of Martinez. The point about dinosaurs like Allardyce, Benítez etc is that’s what we’ve ended up with. I’d call that a huge step in the wrong direction.
We need stability with a forward-thinking manager - one who will be given time, despite the surety of bad runs, to build something. The managerial merry go round is a big part of the current issue and the blame lies equally with the Board and the fans. The board react to the fans impatience and vice versa. It’s a never ending cycle that sees teams drop into the Championship and beyond.

Well we've never dropped into the Championship so not sure how that's applicable really.

 

[Legend Barry Horne]

It’s really not bizarre at all! Since Moyes left we have had a succession of managers, all of whom of been largely supported, all of whom have bought some of their own expensive dross on long term high wage contracts - summed up by the Koeman\Walsh debacle when the pair of them were set on buying their own players without any plan in place!
Since then Allardyce, Silva, Ancelotti and now Benitez have added players, and here we are today with a squad so poor that as soon as a couple are out injured we fold like a cheap suit!
No plan in place, no bottle or leaders in a very average squad, no idea whatsoever! But you’re right it’s not a mess because Benitez says we did ok because we ran around a lot (largely chasing shadows!) the other night!
It’s a mess and has been for some time!

Just seems a negative, 'glass half empty' way to view things

Moyes was at the club 2002 to 2013. He was allowed some poor seasons to start with that no manager now would get away with - that is a key thing here

And to call since a 'mess' is extreme - below ambitions yes, but I wouldn't call finishing 7th/8th a mess. With Ancelotti we looked on the brink of being able to do something - perhaps an attacking player or two short. The timing of his exit, with no plan in place really hasn't helped

Sections of fans, small scale providers of capital, alongside the owners, don't help the situation though, by doing little to create a positive culture - yet expect the owners to do that, despite them contributing much more to the club...

Everton league finishes:

2001-02 - 15th
2002-03 - 7th
2003-04 - 17th
2004-05 - 4th
2005-06 - 11th
2006-07 - 6th
2007-08 - 5th
2008-09 - 5th
2009-10 - 8th
2010-11 - 7th
2011-12 - 7th
2012-13 - 6th
2013-14 - 5th
2014-15 - 11th
2015-16 - 11th
2016-17 - 7th
2017-18 - 8th
2018-19 - 8th
2019-20 - 12th

 

[Toast]

 

[bcblue1878]

Just seems a negative, 'glass half empty' way to view things

Moyes was at the club 2002 to 2013. He was allowed some poor seasons to start with that no manager now would get away with - that is a key thing here

And to call since a 'mess' is extreme - below ambitions yes, but I wouldn't call finishing 7th/8th a mess. With Ancelotti we looked on the brink of being able to do something - perhaps an attacking player or two short. The timing of his exit, with no plan in place really hasn't helped

Sections of fans, small scale providers of capital, alongside the owners, don't help the situation though, by doing little to create a positive culture - yet expect the owners to do that, despite them contributing much more to the club...

Everton league finishes:

2001-02 - 15th
2002-03 - 7th
2003-04 - 17th
2004-05 - 4th
2005-06 - 11th
2006-07 - 6th
2007-08 - 5th
2008-09 - 5th
2009-10 - 8th
2010-11 - 7th
2011-12 - 7th
2012-13 - 6th
2013-14 - 5th
2014-15 - 11th
2015-16 - 11th
2016-17 - 7th
2017-18 - 8th
2018-19 - 8th
2019-20 - 12th

If it’s not a mess why do they feel the need to keep sacking managers, or in your view are they bowing to fan pressure each and every time?
We’ll probably never know but I suspect Ancelotti bailed out because he knew what was coming last summer! No money to spend, and still stuck with players who are only seeing out there contracts here because no one else would be stupid enough to pay them the money Everton do!
But yes you carry on with the “it’s the fans fault” line!