Two CDMs at home against the lesser teams?

[oldblue]

I think it's working well and will be even more effective with a fit in form Baines, but a lot of this is down to having the confidence and will to press teams higher up the pitch. Still think Lennon set a bit of an example last season for us on this score.

 

[Verbal Kint]

Think it's more a question of who we play there really. Against good teams McCarthy and Barry are Certs in my opinion. McCarthy has been more advanced in recent fixtures but the poor lad isn't really a threat. I'd love Barkley to get a run in a deeper role at times think he switches the point of attack really quickly. But to answer your question I think McCarthy and Barry is the way forward.Besic is more like a Barry replacement and Gibson can do this role also.

To summarise my post I haven't a clue what I'm really talking about.

 

[BoysInBlue]

After every game in recent memory where we've failed to break down a stubborn defence the question was always asked 'why do we play with two defensive midfielders every game?'.

It seems only fair that after 10 goals in the last two home matches with Barry and McCarthy playing both we ask the question again.

In my opinion two CDMs give the front four security to do what they want and not worry as much about defending as well as filling in for our full back when they overlap and if we're not breaking teams down that does not fall on them as responsible.

Your thoughts GOT?

We've won 6-2 & 4-0 in our last 2 home games against 'lesser sides'. This '2 CDMs at home' thing is a non-issue. The team & the tactics are working.

 

[davids]

Do you think Chelsea don't have the quality to qualify for European football even after their terrible start?

Don't think a sketchy three points against Norwich proves much to be honest,and the way the division stands at the moment a few wins and West Brom and Stoke could be in the Europa positions,lesser teams?

 

[Coffee and TV]

We won our last 2 home games 10-2 so I'd just stick with 2

 

[Nymzee]

This was only an issue last season when we'd be at home against "lesser" opposition and we proper struggled to break them down even when we dominated so there were obvious calls to drop a DM for an attacker. That's no longer an issue with the form of our front 4.

 

[Shibbywiggles]

Don't think a sketchy three points against Norwich proves much to be honest,and the way the division stands at the moment a few wins and West Brom and Stoke could be in the Europa positions,lesser teams?

I don't think it makes any difference either... My point is that with the players they've got (the ones who won the league last season) you can't rule them out of going on a run and finishing in Europe this season. Stoke and West Brom however seem unlikely so I would say they are lesser teams than we are... Do you not agree we're better than Stoke and West Brom?

 

[catcherintherye]

Two defensive players is absolutely neccessary when playing the front 4 we have.

If you swap in Lennon for Deulofeu and Cleverly for Kone then it is too defensive.

This is definitely the case. I also think McCarthy has to be let off the hook a bit more against poorer teams and he can get forward and make things happen. IT is very important for us Tactically as one of the big problems with have is if Lukaku gets isolated. We need to get midfielders runners close to him. McCarthy is the best at this. It then allows Barkley to have a free role and drop a bit deeper to find space as and begin to dictate the flow of the game.

Against poor teams (or indeed all teams) our objectives need to be;
1) Get Barkley on the ball as much as possible
2) Get support to Lukaku.

Having McCarthy and Barry works but sometimes it's about how we use each of them.

 

[Ashtonian]

We're 7th. Depends on your definition of hindering. Over the last two home games? No. Over the season as a whole thus far? Yes.

considering the fixtures we have had and we should have won at least 2 more than we did, we haven't done too badly. unless we were meant to beat United arsenal and city?

Liverpool and Swansea we should have won admittedly, spurs take a draw away, and we always draw 2-2 on opening day. looking back at the season so far I would call it positive, especially when we are beating the poor teams convincingly!

 

[Saint Domingo]

considering the fixtures we have had and we should have won at least 2 more than we did, we haven't done too badly. unless we were meant to beat United arsenal and city?

Liverpool and Swansea we should have won admittedly, spurs take a draw away, and we always draw 2-2 on opening day. looking back at the season so far I would call it positive, especially when we are beating the poor teams convincingly!

Don't see why we couldn't have got more than zero points out of United Arsenal and City, especially as two were at home and none of the three sides look imperious. Liverpool Watford West Ham and Seansea were for me points dropped as we were the better side but just didn't want to do enough to win the game. We should quite easily be sat here on 4 or 5 more points (dropping Howard alone may have achieved that) and we'd be in a serious battle for top 4.

We won't have players of the quality of Lukaku Barkley Stones amd Deulofeu for ever. I think it's been a decent start but we really need to make this season count.

 

[Ashtonian]

Don't see why we couldn't have got more than zero points out of United Arsenal and City, especially as two were at home and none of the three sides look imperious. Liverpool Watford West Ham and Seansea were for me points dropped as we were the better side but just didn't want to do enough to win the game. We should quite easily be sat here on 4 or 5 more points (dropping Howard alone may have achieved that) and we'd be in a serious battle for top 4.

We won't have players of the quality of Lukaku Barkley Stones amd Deulofeu for ever. I think it's been a decent start but we really need to make this season count.

I agree mate, said it not too long ago we need to actually turn something over this season to justify to the likes of stones why they should be here. A bad season and 3-4 players could well leave next year, obviously not on track record but in theory.

to be fair the games just came at the wrong time for us rather than us under performing. Del is playing a hell of a lot better than we did two months ago in the league, city were smashing teams when we played them, United have one of the best defences in the league so far and Arsenal had world class ozil to thank for their win. We can fume all day long but sometimes we just have to day fair enough and as long as we are out playing poorer teams now those fixtures have stopped, then we can judge our season on that. arms reach of the top teams after our fixtures and potentially a cup semi final I would have taken back in August

 

[Will Escott]

What we're seeing in now is that Barry is sitting a lot deeper and acting as a 4 cb which allows Galloway and Coleman to get forward more. McCarthy is playing in between Barkley and Barry so can help both. Just means we can out pressure on teams at home but counter teams that come at us.

 

[mkrudden]

Don't see why we couldn't have got more than zero points out of United Arsenal and City, especially as two were at home and none of the three sides look imperious. Liverpool Watford West Ham and Seansea were for me points dropped as we were the better side but just didn't want to do enough to win the game. We should quite easily be sat here on 4 or 5 more points (dropping Howard alone may have achieved that) and we'd be in a serious battle for top 4.

We won't have players of the quality of Lukaku Barkley Stones amd Deulofeu for ever. I think it's been a decent start but we really need to make this season count.

I am loath to repeat a previous argument, but...

You kind of constantly beat this drum of needing variation in the middle of the park yet never seem to concede other, pertinent factors.

Taking vs Arsenal. John Stones had an absolute nightmare for the Giroud goal. He let Giroud get on the blind-side of Jagiela and score. Their second goal, John Stones trying to polay his way out of the back in the moments post-Arsenal opener. He loses it, fouls the arsenal player and they score again.

Vs Utd. Howard Kendall died on the morning of the game. The crowd was flat, the players were flat.

What, to me, is strange that you use these examples (and others) as ways of hammering home your opinion that Barry and McCarthy shouldnt start in every game regardless. What's true is that they didnt have a good game against Arsenal, but neither did John Stones yet his brain-farts go unmentioned, either intentionally or unintentionally. There are far more things at play than just the performance of our two midfield players.

Gareth Barry is a must-start player based on the current squad we have. He is the only player that can play that holding midfield role to a high enough level on a consistent basis. We've had the Gibson argument - he's not fit often enough. It's a shame, definitely.

So next to Barry we've got a choice between McCarthy, Besic, Barkley, Cleverley. To me, this player needs to be able to sit in at times and defend smartly but also have the ability to get the ball back as quickly and as high as possible when we are on top and the ball is turned over. Is there really an argument that McCarthy isn't the best player we have for that role? With the ball, he has needed to improve and with coaching and experience he seems to be doing just that. Kone's second vs Sunderland and Barkley's first yesterday are both examples of him not sat on top of the CB's waiting for an opponent to break, but instead getting forward and supporting the attacks.

I've not seen any evidence that Cleverley has this dual-ability in his locker, nor Besic and certainly not Barkley.

My point is, and i'm happy to be proven wrong, is that Barry and McCarthy are the best partnership regardless of opposition. The onus has been on Martinez to improve McCarthy, get him more adventurous whilst maintaining what he's good at - winning the ball back. He's showing very good signs and thus they should continue to play rather than realising what is a fantasy that Barkley and Besic are ready for that role, Gibson will ever be fit enough more consistently and Cleverley is that type of player.

 

[Lanolin]

I think many people get a bit confused as to what the debate is with regard the two midfielders. There seems to be an idea that anyone who wants to see one of the holding players dropped wants us to replace them with someone who strolls around doing nothing defensively and just flitting in and out of the game. In reality, the vast majority have simply advocated using another midfielder who offers slightly more in an attacking sense but is still happy to make tackles and do their defensive duties.

I'm not sure that beating two truly apalling sides at home puts the argument to bed, but I'm happy enough with the way we've played over the last couple of weeks to not be asking for too many changes to personel at the moment.

 

[Nymzee]

The term "defensive midfielder" is so vague these days anyway. There aren't many in the league anymore as it's in essence a pretty out-dated playing style. Only players I can really think of are you Lucas', Coquelin's, Capoue's etc.