2018/19 Tom Davies

[Kidkojak]

So genuine question:

would you compare Alli v Kante?

or even Kante v Jorginho?

or Matic v Pogba?

or Fernandinho v Kevin De Bruyne?

Or, as is more likely, there are distinctions between just the title "CM" based on their role in the team?

Of course you can they all have different styles of play every single player but they are all judged on a few Statistics no matter what area they occupy.
Doesn't matter if its fair or not but your basically saying we should discount the very stats Midfielders are judged on because someone sits a little deeper or not.
He is a Central Midfielder plays alongside either Gana or Morgan not in the hole behind the strikers like a CAM or on the wing although he has been tried there on occasion so he is judged accordingly.
A lot of the players you mentioned actually occupy the hole position behind the strikers hence your comparisons are moot they dont play Central Midfield mostly the number 10 role.
I havent once brought up the high upfield number 10 role so im lost with the comparison.
But again enjoy the points of view.

 

[Parker]

Of course you can they all have different styles of play every single player but they are all judged on a few Statistics no matter what area they occupy.
Doesn't matter if its fair or not but your basically saying we should discount the very stats Midfielders are judged on because someone sits a little deeper or not.
He is a Central Midfielder plays alongside either Gana or Morgan not in the hole behind the strikers like a CAM or on the wing although he has been tried there on occasion so he is judged accordingly.
A lot of the players you mentioned actually occupy the hole position behind the strikers hence your comparisons are moot they dont play Central Midfield mostly the number 10 role.
I havent once brought up the high upfield number 10 role so im lost with the comparison.
But again enjoy the points of view.

In that case you should be discounting CDM's as well as they aren't centre mids. Both Gana and Schneiderlin are defensive midfielders.

 

[Kidkojak]

In that case you should be discounting CDM's as well as they aren't centre mids. Both Gana and Schneiderlin are defensive midfielders.

The point i was making which you missed is that he plays along side them not higher up not deeper alongside so he has been playing in essence that role.

 

[carolinablue232]

Yeah it's a rubbish comparison mate, Morgan / Idrissa to Davies.

Davies plays and receives the ball further up the pitch, in congestion, where there is less time on the ball. He's expected to provide energy and link play, like he did for DCL's goal in the league cup.
Schneiderlin picks up the ball from the CBs and, unless we play City, is under no duress at all and even then typically passes sideways.

Compare apples with applies for a fair debate.

Yet we consistently choose to play with two oranges than one apple who supposedly is supposedly better at getting us up the pitch. Strange that even Silva seemed to prefer that, no? A man that loves an out and out 8.

 

[Parker]

The point i was making which you missed is that he plays along side them not higher up not deeper alongside so he has been playing in essence that role.

Agree to disagree mate, I see Davies ahead of Gana in midfield and definitely ahead of Schneiderlin (position wise not ability) when played with either. Just because on the team sheet he is next to them and he sometimes drops deeper to pick the ball up doesn't mean he plays the same role. He did however play that role against Rotherham when he was paired with Dowell. But I wouldn't say thats his position.

Personally I'd go with Schneids holding and Gana next to him for legs if fit.

Also in regards to the "all midfielders can be compared using the same stats" argument obviously a holding midfielder is gonna have a higher pass accuracy because he isn't playing any risky passes compared to a 10, a centre (attacking) midfielder who needs to receive the ball under pressure and supply killer passes into space. So I don't think that argument holds much water.

 

[Kidkojak]

In that case you should be discounting CDM's as well as they aren't centre mids. Both Gana and Schneiderlin are defensive midfielders.

Agree to disagree mate, I see Davies ahead of Gana in midfield and definitely ahead of Schneiderlin (position wise not ability) when played with either. Just because on the team sheet he is next to them and he sometimes drops deeper to pick the ball up doesn't mean he plays the same role. He did however play that role against Rotherham when he was paired with Dowell. But I wouldn't say thats his position.

Personally I'd go with Schneids holding and Gana next to him for legs if fit.

Also in regards to the "all midfielders can be compared using the same stats" argument obviously a holding midfielder is gonna have a higher pass accuracy because he isn't playing any risky passes compared to a 10, a centre (attacking) midfielder who needs to receive the ball under pressure and supply killer passes into space. So I don't think that argument holds much water.

I didnt bring that comparison up Davies has played alongside Gana and Morgan hence he is subject to the same Critiques whether or not he gets forward more or not be it right or wrong isnt decided by me so he has to be judged on the same Statistics.
He also doesnt play CAM ever i think maybe once so its the only comparison really lets see how he tallys up when Andre Gomes is given a chance might be worth coming back too then.

 

[ToffeeTim]

Still think he will be good once he grows out of his carelessness. 90% of the mistakes he makes are through lack of concentration and that's OK, that can possibly be rectified but he needs to do the work himself to improve.

 

[Barnfred 55]

I can't answer for others but I would have thought the answer was pretty obvious really - they weren't impacting Everton's first team.

I know there are some who are saying Davies will always be useless but that's not what most are saying at all. The majority of comments are people saying he's not good enough to be playing in our first team right now. Yes he can improve, but this is a forum where people will comment on his performances over the last year or so, which have, to be blunt, been at best average and at worst appalling.

I don't think anybody's saying he's not allowed to be inconsistent or poor, just that they'd rather it wasn't while he's in the centre of our midfield. Seems fairly self explanatory to me.

Get a grip. You know exactly the point I was making about a player having a natural ability to pick a pass. Look at Fabregas at 17 and even to a lesser extent Barkley when he came through with us. You could tell these players were a cut above others in possession. Davies will never be that type of player regardless of the work he puts in on the training ground.

The only thing Davies has going for him right now is his age. I think he could possibly develop himself into a Lee Cattermole type player if he improved his stamina. That is something he can work on if he wants to.

Against Rotherham reserves at home in the League Cup.

If anything, it shows that he doesn't have the mentality for a Premier League player, as he can only do it against lower league dross with the pressure off.

He's abysmal and the strange personality cult that surrounds him insulates him from proper scrutiny.

Hilarious that the only defence of him is his age. Where were you all defending Sandro? If I could be bothered, I’d vault you all.

Noodle head gets a pass because he’s from Liverpool, supports Everton and came through our academy. That’s enough for some. Doesn’t take away from the fact he’s terrible at football.

I can only see Davies as a nothing player at the moment. He is young yes, but we do not see any flashes of brilliance from him and now if he does a simple pass you can feel the relief that he hasn't ballsed up again. He is not even close to being adequate for us I am afraid. Once Gana comes back with Gomes and Bernard you will not see much of him. He hasn't taken his chance and has had ample opportunities

I think people need to work out that our academy prospects are never going to be anything other than average. We have this horrible habit of expecting every player to be some world class Rooney mk2 which realistically will never happen. Davies will likely never be more than a squad filler and an option to come off the bench

Not allowed to say a young scouse lad is utter pony mate, its frowned upon, it means you have an agenda.

It seems youth can give player a free pass. He does not seem to develop in recent years although already played 60 odd games for the club. He has not one stand out attribute.

He’s just not good enough and probably not going to be good enough to be playing for a team trying to get into the top 6.
It’s that simple really. If we have a fully fit side I imagine he won’t be near the team.

My issue with Davies is that i actually dont know what he is good at. There is no quality in him that I can see and convince myself that he will excel in future.

Skateboaring, haircuts and buying cloths, thats about it

He’s poor now, but was he ever that good? Like his debut season was he actually any good? I genuinely can’t even remember.

He’s not good enough, regardless of his age or where he’s from. Not even close to a prem player.

Tom Davies? More like BOMB Davies.

That’s because you’re AWFUL lad.

Love mediocrity

Only reason people defending Davies is because he's a local lad. Fact. He's useless and will never make the grade. Sorry to say but it's true.

I think it's more too do with the fact that fans are stuck in the mindset of how great our academy is. Maybe it's not quite as good as everyone thinks it is? Other than Barkley, who did show flashes of brilliance at times but also seemed more interested in playing the gangster around town, everyone else coming through the academy has ended up in the championship or league 1. As for Tom Davies, i think fans just look at the fact he has been around the first team squad for 3 years now, yet people are not actually sure what position he plays. He has a great engine, but everyone in the PL should as it's a very physical league, it's a min requirement. However his actual football skills seem somewhat lacking for this level at times, lack of spatial awareness, poor passing, positioning, stuff that for someone playing in midfield is kind of important.

Wish i would have recorded some of the passes he is giving away for England U21 against Latvia its seriously laughable some of them look like toe pokes to absolutely no where not as if they are just missing there target they are utter John Smiths Worthy.

So you're dream is to see us in the championship?

Biggest problem for me is that he hasn’t progressed seemingly at all in 2 years. Doesn’t excel at anything.

I don't like slating our players but this guy, his pass completion must be single figures as his passes almost NEVER find their man.

I think the biggest problem with Davies is us as fans, now I am one of his worst critics as I believe he isn't now and will never be good enough for a Premier League team. But there are fans that believe that he is gonna be absolutely brilliant (My father in law is one of these and is adamant that he will be Engaaeeerrrrland Captain in 3 years, we argue all the time over it) and due to this, they don't allow for anyone to criticise him. This then makes the fans that think he isn't good enough angry, as they don't see anything that the others do. Both sides end up butting heads as one thinks he's brilliant and the other terrible and neither is happy to back down on it!

It's great to read though, so keep it up.

That's not quite true mate. I've gone back a week and picked out these posts (I don't think I've duplicated any posters) by people who think he isn't and won't be good enough for us.

There are probably an equal number of posters, like me, defending him or asking posters to give him time. And there are a small number who, like yourself, are critical of the player but not yet prepared to write him off completely as there is still a chance he can come good.

By contrast I didn't come across one post that says he's good enough to start every game and should be playing for England.

I haven't even picked out the worst posts mate. I just picked out the first post by each person writing him off, an I probably missed one or two of those.

 

[mkrudden]

There’s a tolerance that fans can take. Two bottom half finishes and the worst home record in our history is outside that tolerance he had to be fired regardless of my views on him.

The fans?
You're no union representative.
We are talking about you and your hypocrisy my friend.

 

[Kidkojak]

Jesus Barn haha i wondered why you went quiet that must have took some time and i appreciate the effort put in.
I have read many a post saying that he is playing well when he clearly hasn't that is where my arguments come in as in he needs to be given time somewhere else to really build that confidence and self belief back not cuddled and protected like its all gonna be alright come next matchday it just isn't working right now.
Also literally 80 percent of them comments i agree with.

 

[Saint Domingo]

The fans?
You're no union representative.
We are talking about you and your hypocrisy my friend.

No hypocrisy. If Silva replicates Martinez’s results i’ll lambast him too. That’s consistency. I supported all of Martinez’s young players whilst we had them (apart from towards the end of Barkley’s time when I thought his head was elsewhere and he wasn’t trying).

 

[ArtetaMoney]

That's not quite true mate. I've gone back a week and picked out these posts (I don't think I've duplicated any posters) by people who think he isn't and won't be good enough for us.

There are probably an equal number of posters, like me, defending him or asking posters to give him time. And there are a small number who, like yourself, are critical of the player but not yet prepared to write him off completely as there is still a chance he can come good.

By contrast I didn't come across one post that says he's good enough to start every game and should be playing for England.

I haven't even picked out the worst posts mate. I just picked out the first post by each person writing him off, an I probably missed one or two of those.

Fair play for the time you’ve taken there. Suppose we will see with Davies, but he will always split opinions. I personally don’t think he will play much once the injured players are anywhere near full fitness. I could be wrong though.

 

[mkrudden]

Of course you can they all have different styles of play every single player but they are all judged on a few Statistics no matter what area they occupy.
Doesn't matter if its fair or not but your basically saying we should discount the very stats Midfielders are judged on because someone sits a little deeper or not.
He is a Central Midfielder plays alongside either Gana or Morgan not in the hole behind the strikers like a CAM or on the wing although he has been tried there on occasion so he is judged accordingly.
A lot of the players you mentioned actually occupy the hole position behind the strikers hence your comparisons are moot they dont play Central Midfield mostly the number 10 role.
I havent once brought up the high upfield number 10 role so im lost with the comparison.
But again enjoy the points of view.

Well Kante and Jorginho are both deep-lying CMs. Yet one's tasked with buzzing round the pitch and the other staying in shape, marking space and looking to intercept. Kante's job is to get it to Jorginho and the latter's job is to play subtle, forward passes. So if you compare them on one metric, let's say, their tackling stats, Kante would come out on top because that's his role and quality. Jorginho would out on top if creative/ forward passing accuracy was the metric because that's his role and quality. The two together are the partnership.

It was the same with Fabregas and Kante. Are you going to compare those two? Both CM, both not "in the hole".

It was the same with us when we had Barry and McCarthy.

I'd also say that KDB wasn't and isn't a player who operates behind the striker. The old "Quarter Back" reference was made many a time last season because, like against us, he was playing really deep. His role is to distribute though, not to tackle.

So what you're saying is Davies and Morgan can be compared in relation to their passing yet one passes it under no pressure as the link between the two CBs (Schneiderlin) and the other is receiving the ball, back to goal sometimes, with someone up his backside, in a crowded midfield and who's job it is to pass forwards and be creative. Isn't it obvious that Davies' passing stats wouldn't be as good? especially then factoring in his age?

Come on mate, this is crazy!

 

[mkrudden]

No hypocrisy. If Silva replicates Martinez’s results i’ll lambast him too. That’s consistency. I supported all of Martinez’s young players whilst we had them (apart from towards the end of Barkley’s time when I thought his head was elsewhere and he wasn’t trying).

Silva has £££££ to spend so won't need to rely on youth, and the inconsistency you concede it brings. The comparison is therefore irrelevant.

 

[Kidkojak]

How Many time do i have to repeat that its not my system of how statistics are born out or interpreted its irrelevant in the eyes of the very stats we are discussing.
He plays alongside Gana or Morgan he doesn't play as a CAM so he inadvertently will be judged on the same Stats Midfield Players are judged on its quite simple your literally arguing with yourself right now.
Also KDB plays both positions with ease so your wrong Davies can not play that CAM role so does Cesc quite easily play multiple positions if needs be yet to see that versatility from Davies and can pretty surely say we wont anytime soon.