The EU deal

[Rob17896]

I agree that the increasing the money supply worsens the situation but it's also a supply and demand issue. The increase in immigration fuels the demand and the supply is fueled by the money.

Immigration must do a bit. Most immigrants come to save money and send it home. I think they impact the rental market more. As we have almost as many Brits working in Europe then I suppose same applies to places abroad. Look at all the retired people who have bought in Spain

 

[Rob17896]

They really can't because employees aren't slaves. Basically if another job is available with better working conditions then the employee just goes there.

That's why you have seen worker conditions improve so drastically in places like China. Nothing to do with regulation and in fact I don't have a link to the study but I remember it said that throughout history in the world worker conditions increase faster in low regulation environments than high regulation environments.

I used to be for strong regulation and in many cases still am but when I started reading more about it I can see the other side of the argument.

I'm still not 100% one way or the other. It still feels like an academic argument that I can't fully trust.

Anyway goodnight. Have to go to work tomorrow on my European health conference

 

[Hibbertinho]

They don't have to. We just keep going round in circles.


TTIP?

You mean the agreement that the EU opposes, and the one that B.J. lauded as the best thing ever until very, very recently?...

Is it not a fair point that we acknowledge the differences within Europe?

I dunno mate, but please explain - what are you on about?

 

[Cypher]

Because the vote leave camp attracts those sorts of people, and has Nigel Farage as a figurehead? I don't think all Brexiters are though, that would be a sweeping generalisation. Apologies for insinuating you were racist, if you aren't. Was just going off that weird little rant about Albanian men.

I'm pretty sure there are plenty of racists in the remain camp too. Quite often it's the people who virtue signal who are the worst. Look at the problem the left in the UK who are mostly remain has with antisemitism. I suggest we should respect each other and keep the debate civil.

 

[Cypher]

Immigration must do a bit. Most immigrants come to save money and send it home. I think they impact the rental market more. As we have almost as many Brits working in Europe then I suppose same applies to places abroad. Look at all the retired people who have bought in Spain

The buy to leters then impacts the price of homes. It's a market. One area of the market has ripple effects on all the other areas although the ripples get smaller and smaller the further away you go.

 

[Hibbertinho]

I'm pretty sure there are plenty of racists in the remain camp too. Quite often it's the people who virtue signal who are the worst. Look at the problem the left in the UK who are mostly remain has with antisemitism. I suggest we should respect each other and keep the debate civil.

Or, if you would like, you can open that can of worms which you're holding.

Oh dear, 'virture signalling' - what a nice way to put someone down who ever wants to point out something/someone is wrong. Utterly flawed.

Whatever mate, I'm sure there are 'some' of that ilk on both sides, wouldn't suggest otherwise... but I would sincerely love you to try and deny the specific attraction of the immigration ramifications for Brexit to Britain's hard-right.

 

[Ratkiller]

You mean the agreement that the EU opposes, and the one that B.J. lauded as the best thing ever until very, very recently?...



I dunno mate, but please explain - what are you on about?

So it's been rejected ?
And if by BJ you mean Boris Johnson I can't stand the fella. And he's someone who has no intention of leaving the EU anyway. There are other games being played there.

 

[Ratkiller]

Or, if you would like, you can open that can of worms which you're holding.

Oh dear, 'virture signalling' - what a nice way to put someone down who ever wants to point out something/someone is wrong. Utterly flawed.

Whatever mate, I'm sure there are 'some' of that ilk on both sides, wouldn't suggest otherwise... but I would sincerely love you to try and deny the specific attraction of the immigration ramifications for Brexit to Britain's hard-right.

Would their not be specific attraction to Britain's hard left then in uncontrolled immigration?

 

[Hibbertinho]

So it's been rejected ?
And if by BJ you mean Boris Johnson I can't stand the fella. And he's someone who has no intention of leaving the EU anyway. There are other games being played there.

I still don't understand you, since you're not being explicit.

I agree there are games being played - of the most cynical nature. But the insincerity, for me, is largely coming from the pro-Brexit side. Boris Johnson is a clever man masquerading as a loveable buffoon - he wants the TTIP and he wants Brexit (at least for his leadership prospects). What is it you think, then?

 

[Cypher]

Or, if you would like, you can open that can of worms which you're holding.

Oh dear, 'virture signalling' - what a nice way to put someone down who ever wants to point out something/someone is wrong. Utterly flawed.

Whatever mate, I'm sure there are 'some' of that ilk on both sides, wouldn't suggest otherwise... but I would sincerely love you to try and deny the specific attraction of the immigration ramifications for Brexit to Britain's hard-right.

Why would I ever want to do that. Of course racists are going to be for Brexit but that doesn't mean that a) those for remain aren't racists and b) those for Brexit are racists.

It's guilt by association and it's offensive to people you are labeling with the broad bush. Not only is it offensive but also hypocritical given some of the antisemitic views of certain people in the remain camp.

 

[Ratkiller]

I still don't understand you, since you're not being explicit.

I agree there are games being played - of the most cynical nature. But the insincerity, for me, is largely coming from the pro-Brexit side. Boris Johnson is a clever man masquerading as a loveable buffoon - he wants the TTIP and he wants Brexit (at least for his leadership prospects). What is it you think, then?

OK I'll ask you explicitly.

Has the EU completely rejected TTIP?

 

[Hibbertinho]

Why would I ever want to do that. Of course racists are going to be for Brexit but that doesn't mean that a) those for remain aren't racists and b) those for Brexit are racists.

It's guilt by association and it's offensive to people you are labeling with the broad bush. Not only is it offensive but also hypocritical given some of the antisemitic views of certain people in the remain camp.

Did you read that bit where I said 'not everyone'? I'm only 'labeling' the people who we agree exist and might even be quite happy to wear it.

Why would it be hypocritical of me? That would imply that I would have to be 'guilty by association'?

I don't deny that anti-semitism has recently reared its ugly head in the labour party either, just as none of us could deny the problems that the conservatives have had with homophobia, for example.

My point was just to explain that label, in response to another poster, not to tar people with it.

 

[Hibbertinho]

OK I'll ask you explicitly.

Has the EU completely rejected TTIP?

Well, there is massive opposition to it from within the EU and I believe that opposition provides a bigger obstacle to it passing. But I won't pretend it's all clear-cut; I just trust the EU more than the tories, tbh, personally...

...but admittedly, the EU has already signed a similar trade agreement with Canada (Ceta) which needs to be vetoed if it is not to pass in the next few years - and Cameron is already pushing for UK to have provisional application to bring it in earlier. Bozza is singing its praises too - it's the same kind of handover of power to corporations that I think we should be afraid of.

 

[Cypher]

Did you read that bit where I said 'not everyone'? I'm only 'labeling' the people who we agree exist and might even be quite happy to wear it.

Why would it be hypocritical of me? That would imply that I would have to be 'guilty by association'?

I don't deny that anti-semitism has recently reared its ugly head in the labour party either, just as none of us could deny the problems that the conservatives have had with homophobia, for example.

My point was just to explain that label, in response to another poster, not to tar people with it.

This was what I was referring to.

Because the vote leave camp attracts those sorts of people, and has Nigel Farage as a figurehead? I don't think all Brexiters are though, that would be a sweeping generalisation. Apologies for insinuating you were racist, if you aren't. Was just going off that weird little rant about Albanian men.

This was the bit. Both camps attract their racists and what you call "those sorts of people" for different reasons. You had to apologize for insinuating someone was a racists which makes me think that's just the default conclusion you come to. I suspect deep down you think Brexiters are racists even if you have to play the politically correct game of "not all Brexiters" a bit like racists who play the political correct game of "not all minorities or I have friends who are black."

It's symptomatic of people in remain which lead to that ad with the white thug shouting at the asian woman. The worst thing is most still don't even realize how offensive that was. It's as if it's perfectly acceptable to do that. Well it's not. Maybe I'm going over board here and it's late but you will forgive my tone because of the amount of crap that constantly gets thrown around.

The fact is that there's still a lot of racism in today's society from all sides of society.

 

[Hibbertinho]

This was what I was referring to.


This was the bit. Both camps attract their racists and what you call "those sorts of people" for different reasons. You had to apologize for insinuating someone was a racists which makes me think that's just the default conclusion you come to. I suspect deep down you think Brexiters are racists even if you have to play the politically correct game of "not all Brexiters" a bit like racists who play the political correct game of "not all minorities or I have friends who are black."

It's symptomatic of people in remain which lead to that ad with the white thug shouting at the asian woman. The worst thing is most still don't even realize how offensive that was. It's as if it's perfectly acceptable to do that. Well it's not. Maybe I'm going over board here and it's late but you will forgive my tone because of the amount of crap that constantly gets thrown around.

The fact is that there's still a lot of racism in today's society from all sides of society.

It is indisputable that racism does not neatly line up with people's political leanings.

For clarity, here is my definitive stance on the matter:

To me, there seems to be unquestionably an either larger or more vocal contingent in the leave camp (relative to the remain camp) which I think harbour racist ideals. That is not to say that all brexiters are racist - which I haven't stated anywhere. But it does explain the 'label' (which was all I was merely attempting to do in response to another poster's enquiry), and justify that segment you have put in bold, as an isolated statement.

I apologised since I regretted jumping to a conclusion on the internet - but the line of argument that other poster was taking did warrant probing.

I can't really avoid sounding insincere with the qualification 'not all brexiters' if you want to draw a parallel with 'not all minorities' etc... but simply see that I stated it in the first place and perhaps take my word for it that I would not bother posting in this thread if I thought that I was arguing with people who were just intrinsically racist. I am actually very keen to have my views challenged and open to good debate, where people have it.