Stature

[The Hibbert Agenda]

I really want a cup
Baines definitely wants a cup
If Bainesy was playing last night we would have won
If you don't care about this cup, you don't care about Baines, and if you don't care about Baines then you aren't an Evertonian

 

[Steve Wigan]

Have to say, I see were Tubey is coming from, and from one point of view I agree with him. Its never nice when we lose, but we're going to lose sometimes, and given a choice between progress in the LC or three points against Newcastle, I'd take the three points anytime. I might feel differently if we were playing last night in the semi final, but even then there would be no doubt in my mind that the Premier League was more important. If we're 4th or 5th at the end of the season, an early exit from the LC will be forgotten. As someone said earlier about 'stature'..we have an amazing history, a great reputation as a club, are in the top eight clubs in the best league in the world. We have great stature in the game. Winning the League Cup would be nice, but in terms of the stature of our club, it wouldn't make an iota of difference. I don't think winning the FA Cup has made any difference to Wigans 'stature' in the game....except within about 500 yards of the DW Stadium. Everton are a massive club, and I don't see that perception changing any time soon.

 

[Allezfan]

Is it going to be something that is used to beat Martinez with if we slip down the league, or go out of the FA Cup early?

I'm not being obtuse here, these are all questions that lead on from whether the Capital Cup should be a focus for Everton.

Last year was, imo, as good a team as we've had at everton since the late 80s.

And it didn't win a trophy and it didn't end up in europe. So it failed.

As Davek says an everton manager has three aims, european football, the fa cup or the league cup, that's it, that's really the only things an everton manager can achieve in the current conditions given that we're not going to win the league and we're not going to go down. Derbies, style of football, winning league games, playing well etc comes in to it in terms of how happy we are but essentially it comes down to those three aims.

Last year we missed out on europe. Now you can blame that on the league, but I think that's unfair, we played well in the league but the top 5 were terrific last year, we needed a lot of points to break into there. And given the way spurs and arsenal are playing this year, chances are it'll the same.

No, I blamed our failiure to achieve anything last year on two really bad performaces in the cups which meant that wigan and swansea took those european places and those trophies instead. And I blamed those two bad performances on the manager's team selection and attitude.

Now should Martinez win the FA Cup or even qualify us for europe through the league then fair enough, this competion doesn't matter. If he doesn't and at the end of the season we've played well, we look good and we're still not in europe and not got any trophies, (we've failed essentially), then I would point fingers at the league cup and the way we tamely surrendered our fight for that particular european spot (and trophy, but while that matters to me, it doesn't matter to you so I won't emphasise that) as the reason we're not in europe. Which is something i want to be.

Does this mean me and Martinez don't have the same priorities? Possibly. Me and Moyes certainly didn't. I don't think that if we do that always means I'm wrong, though, which you seem to be implying.

 

[allen]

I just want the league cup to complete the domestic set. I'd rather we won the FA Cup in any given season, but not having won the league cup really irks me. Even Luton, Oxford and Swindon have managed it.

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

I largely agree with what AF has said there.

I would add that for me, this seasons League cup was more important than in recent seasons. As I fully expect our league season to be a bit erratic due to the change in manager & style, thus putting a European place out of reach, as compared to recent years when we've been in the running until the closing games. Therefore the League cup this season should have taken an increased level of focus as it's the simplest path to both a European spot & a pot.

 

[bluelife]

Following on from a discussion in the match thread that has honestly taken me by surprise, so a genuine question for the younger fans.

Do you genuinely feel that winning the League Cup (or ANY cup for that matter) is a prerequisite for Everton to be an established big club?

The reason I ask is because I understand we haven't won anything since 1995 and that is now an entire life for an 18 year old lad, so I wonder how much influence the history and prestige of the club has on how you view yourself as an Evertonian.

Now, I'm not deluded. I know we're not a successful footballing giant in the modern era like Manchester United, or even to a lesser extent Liverpool. Or one of the nouveau riche Chelsea and Man City, who could be argued to be "bigger" depending on your criteria.

But I'm alarmed at the absolute panic at not playing a full strength side in a League Cup game in a transitional season following a good start in the league? See, for me, we're still a massive football club, and the focus will always be above and beyond the League Cup.

So... yeah, are younger people seriously in meltdown over going out of the League Cup or is this just temporary over the top kneejerking?

I'm 17 and I don't care about it really, whereas getting knocked out of the FA cup does hurt. I haven't seen Everton win anything so whilst that's pretty frustrating, Im used to it

 

[The Hibbert Agenda]

We'll be pissed off when 11th place Newcastle win this stupid cup and eliminate our league-based European spot

 

[Foot Long Hot Dog]

We'll be pissed off when 11th place Newcastle win this stupid cup and eliminate our league-based European spot

This sums up the total lack of logic shown in ignoring the opportunity that the LC offers.

League season 38 games, 5th place needed to guarantee a European spot;

As opposed to the LC;

5 rounds to play, usually at least 1 or 2 of those against lower league opposition, the top PL sides playing in Europe or fighting at the wrong end of the table - generally play shadow sides in the competition, there's a Wembley appearance if you get through the 5 rounds & a cup & a Euro place if you win the final........

Why would you treat it with anything less that total seriousness if you were Everton this season in particular???

 

[Chimpy Glassman]

I'm 17 and I don't care about it really, whereas getting knocked out of the FA cup does hurt. I haven't seen Everton win anything so whilst that's pretty frustrating, Im used to it

This makes me feel super old.

 

[Tubey]

As for the cup importance/big club argument...well I'd like us to win it because we havent and because it means Europe and possible competitive ties just like our last one versus Fiorentina...where I'm sure we all went crazy when we came back from 2 down despite what happened in the end. As a fan you want big nights/moments like that. However...I wouldn't be singing songs or wearing tshirts to commemorate our winning of it. That would be embarrasing.

Yeah pretty much this with me too. Of course, I'd like us to win the League Cup, but that doesn't mean I think it should be an all out priority and if we won it the good thing would be the European qualification more than the trophy itself.

I agree with you, as I do most times. I think though, winning the League Cup would be nice as we have not won it before. But this season, Martinez is aiming for the top four. He is taking it game by game, and it's nice to see that we're genuinely aiming for the top four instead of half-heartedly arsing about with the aim under Moyes. I really think we could get in the top 4, and if we're in the Champions League next season, that would be much better than winning a League Cup.

We're a big club, and CL should be our aim every season in this modern era. Lets hope we beat Newcastle well.

Yep agreed. I just don't have a lust for any trophy, so my expectations are different to a lot on this thread, but you've summed up my view - basically, I'd rather we focussed on something worthwhile for a club of our size.

Have to say, I see were Tubey is coming from, and from one point of view I agree with him. Its never nice when we lose, but we're going to lose sometimes, and given a choice between progress in the LC or three points against Newcastle, I'd take the three points anytime. I might feel differently if we were playing last night in the semi final, but even then there would be no doubt in my mind that the Premier League was more important. If we're 4th or 5th at the end of the season, an early exit from the LC will be forgotten. As someone said earlier about 'stature'..we have an amazing history, a great reputation as a club, are in the top eight clubs in the best league in the world. We have great stature in the game. Winning the League Cup would be nice, but in terms of the stature of our club, it wouldn't make an iota of difference. I don't think winning the FA Cup has made any difference to Wigans 'stature' in the game....except within about 500 yards of the DW Stadium. Everton are a massive club, and I don't see that perception changing any time soon.

100% agree, nice to read as I thought I was going mental last night, but perhaps it was too soon to make the initial post following the loss.

I just want the league cup to complete the domestic set. I'd rather we won the FA Cup in any given season, but not having won the league cup really irks me. Even Luton, Oxford and Swindon have managed it.

I can understand this view completely. It's like having a sticker book from the 90s, having every sticker except Ronny Johnsen. Yes, in every other respect you don't care in the slightest about Ronny Johnsen, but you want the full set FFS.

I'm 17 and I don't care about it really, whereas getting knocked out of the FA cup does hurt. I haven't seen Everton win anything so whilst that's pretty frustrating, Im used to it

This is a bit sad actually - you should never get used to Everton not winning trophies mate, we used to do it for fun after all and we're still one of the top clubs in the country. A bit disconcerting that the kids growing up as Blues have a lowering of overall expectations, but given that your entire Everton supporting life has been David Moyes that's hardly surprising!

We're a massive club, trophy wins will come again.

 

[Allezfan]

I agree with you, as I do most times. I think though, winning the League Cup would be nice as we have not won it before. But this season, Martinez is aiming for the top four. He is taking it game by game, and it's nice to see that we're genuinely aiming for the top four instead of half-heartedly arsing about with the aim under Moyes. I really think we could get in the top 4, and if we're in the Champions League next season, that would be much better than winning a League Cup.

We're a big club, and CL should be our aim every season in this modern era. Lets hope we beat Newcastle well.

I was going to ask 'if we don't get into the CL will your opinion change' but given that we haven't played in the CL proper since 1971, it probably won't.

 

[The Hibbert Agenda]

I think the problem here is that we lost to an average Fulham side that hadn't won at home for 6 games prior to this one! This was not a game we should be losing. If we are to drop out the cup it SHOULD be vs a better or equivalent team- or else its angering. If we are fortunate enough to get Stevenage and then a poor Fulham we should be going through.
Its not knee-jerk to be very irritated by this.

 

[Chang Elephant]

I'd have liked to win the league cup. It's a day out at Wembley on the lash. The Europa league can gtf though, Thursday night/Sunday football whilst we slip down the league is uncool.

 

[Housequake]

No, people want Everton to win trophies because that's the entire aim of football.

This is basically it.

[Poor language removed] finishing 4th, [Poor language removed] your profits and [Poor language removed] your TV money, they're all beside the point.

Football is about winning, always has been and always should be, if you don't aspire to win things then why on earth are you supporting a team with one of the richest and most fruitful histories in the English game?

 

[mkrudden]

And it's not even like their games were close. 4-0 and 5-0.

Im not sure you should be using the squads of Spurs and City to ours as a point of reference in any debate.

Both of those teams have squad that dwarf ours in quality and quantity. You know this, and therefore I have no idea what your point actually is?

Expect better from you Brennan.