Look I highly rate Donovan as well but I think we're kind both sides of the same coin. My issue is more of whenever I make a point you tend to discount it but then use the same argument against me to discount my point. I say well the mls isn't the same standard and you tell me why I should ignore that and look at LD's service in the league. You then say basically say well yea dempsey plays in the PL but it's not like he's playing for Man.u. Kind of being hypocritical. Playing devils advocate LD also has inflated numbers as he started for club and the national team so much earlier than Demps. Credit for longevity yes, but I don't think that makes him the better player. There is no wrong answer but I just like what Demps has done with his career and his style better. Look at the last 2 world cups. Dempsey was the only american to score in 2006 and that was a real low for donovan as he really played poorly. Yes, donovan got "THAT" goal against algeria in 2010 but for that tournament dempsey was at least his equal. Dempsey got the goal against england. He had another perfectly good goal taken away on a bs offside call. He took out the keeper that allowed donovan his goal and it was demps that drew the penalty to get donovan his goal against ghana. Going back to the confed cup. demps and donovan were the scorers in the loss to brazil but dempsey also had the goal against spain and the one against egypt that put the US through. He also won the bronze boot for that big tournament. I also have a feeling that if it was dempsey that played for everton and donovan at fulham that maybe just maybe you wouldn't be so sure about your point.
Sir Landon Of Donovan
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Kay20
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I just don't agree with that. I think it's needlessly unfair and shortsighted and ignoring performance and international play (where it's apples to apples). And ignoring easily findable numbers. Clint also has yet to do for the national team what he does for Fulham (though recently he has done that), and I think he's been stellar the last few years, not as long as LD has. I sound like I don't like him, I DO, just not as much as LD.
But to each his own. I'm not going to convert you clealry, but I at least wanted to show the stats.
Skidrow - That is not my intent to try and use the clubs' reputations to prove my point. So let's discount Landon's stats by HALF because they are "inflated." They are still higher. I also adjusted for when Clint entered the league - still higher. That's my point. Landon was widely recognized as being the best US player at the Confederations Cup even though he wasn't goal scoring (minus that spectacular goal against Brazil). Some folks thought he should have got the Bronze Boot Dempsey did. Why? Because he creates. As Landon Donovan goes, the USMNT goes. He did that for us a few weeks too. LD had a miserable 2006 Cup (minus the Italy game), but he had a great 2002, and a solid 2010. And the player that got the US through qualifying in 2006 and 2010? LD.
Clint is a goal scorer, that's what he does - and he does it beautifully. But he doesn't assist his teammates - he has less than 20 assists in his career. LD scores and creates. And that to me is a key difference. I understand your viewpoint, but I continue to think that Landon gets unfairly discounted for his play in MLS and Clint gets rewarded for sticking it out at Fulham. In a way, that should happen since the EPL is harder. But if that's the case, then Landon should be given the benefit of the doubt for basically carrying his national team for nearly a decade. (Which is why if Dempsey played for Everton, I still would have the same opinion.) I hope in a few years Landon's service to MLS gets rewarded. The league is thriving partly because of the work he, and he alone, poured into it. Things like helping get over the strike in 2010. And his constant PR.
I love both players. But to me, best ever is no contest.
Cha ching! This debate is not even debatable. Clint is a solid player, yes, can do a few things well...namely find the onion bag, but his footballing skills AND his overall performance pale in comparison.
I seem to remember someone talking about tits earlier in the thread...let's get back to that...far more interesting...
tsubaki
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Kurt.
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Frith
"That is not my intent to try and use the clubs' reputations to prove my point. "
But that is EXACTLY what you did. I also completely dispute that landon was considered the best US player at the confed. cup. Where you pulling this out of? Clint was on fire that tournament. You say Dempsey only recently has come on. This is the 2006 usmnt results for the year. You say landon scores and creates. I present this. Where is all that scoring you're talking about. Only recently done for national team. This goes back 6 years.
Jan. 22, 2006 U.S. Men vs. Canada 0-0 T -- Torero Stadium
San Diego, Calif. 6,077
Jan. 29, 2006 U.S. Men vs. Norway 5-0 W Twellman (3), Pope, Klein The Home Depot Center
Carson, Calif. 16,366
Feb. 10, 2006 U.S. Men vs. Japan 3-2 W Pope, Dempsey, Twellman AT&T Park
San Francisco, Calif. 37,365
Feb. 19, 2006 U.S. Men vs. Guatemala 4-0 W Olsen, Ching, Johnson, Klein Pizza Hut Park
Frisco, Texas 14,453
March 1, 2006 U.S. Men vs. Poland 1-0 W Dempsey 13,395
March 22, 2006 U.S. Men vs. Germany 1-4 L Cherundolo Signal Iduna Park
Dortmund 64,500
April 11, 2006 U.S. Men vs. Jamaica 1-1 T Olsen SAS Soccer Park
Cary, N.C. 8,093
May 23, 2006 U.S. Men vs. Morocco 0-1 L -- Nashville Coliseum
Nashville, Tenn. 26,141
May 26, 2006 U.S. Men vs. Venezuela 2-0 W Ching, Dempsey Cleveland Browns Stadium
Cleveland, Ohio 29,745
May 28, 2006 U.S. Men vs. Latvia 1-0 W McBride Rentschler Field
East Hartford, Conn. 24,636
June 12, 2006 U.S. Men vs. Czech Republic 0-3 L -- FIFA World Cup Stadium Gelsenkirchen
Gelsenkirchen 52,000
June 17, 2006 U.S. Men vs. Italy 1-1 T Zaccardo (Own Goal) Fritz-Walter Stadion
Kaiserslautern 46,000
June 22, 2006 U.S. Men vs. Ghana 1-2 L Dempsey Frankenstadion
Nuremberg 41,000
You say you took landons numbers and halved them. I think by 2/3 is more appropriate. Yes, he carried the team for many a year but I think that almost gives him too much credit. You look at it he deserves credit when he was bascially the only US option for years. I look at it his numbers are way out of whack and he gets too much credit for those early years when he was basically all we hadwhen looking career numbers wise. Since the emergence of other players his numbers are not where they were and more in alignment with what I feel they would have been all along if he had that type of talent around him early in his career. I just feel that Clints time in the PL has helped him surpass LD. Not that the both aren't great. Perhaps if LD had chosen a career over here his game would have also improved to a point where no US player could ever be debated against him. He chose not to so we'll never know. I just think dempsey should be rewarded for wanting to test himself pass or fail in a league against the best in the world. Donovan chose not to. To me Donovans choice is akin to tiger woods playing in all the tournaments except the majors. He'll always be what if... It's just the way it is. Credit to him for wanting to raise the profile of his home league for sure. But when so many AMERICANS wanted him to go to europe full-time as myself it kind of stings he didn't. With Dempsey they'll never say well he didn't try or could he really have made it in europe on a year round basis. You have your choice and I have mine. They are both really excellent players.
But that is EXACTLY what you did. I also completely dispute that landon was considered the best US player at the confed. cup. Where you pulling this out of? Clint was on fire that tournament. You say Dempsey only recently has come on. This is the 2006 usmnt results for the year. You say landon scores and creates. I present this. Where is all that scoring you're talking about. Only recently done for national team. This goes back 6 years.
Jan. 22, 2006 U.S. Men vs. Canada 0-0 T -- Torero Stadium
San Diego, Calif. 6,077
Jan. 29, 2006 U.S. Men vs. Norway 5-0 W Twellman (3), Pope, Klein The Home Depot Center
Carson, Calif. 16,366
Feb. 10, 2006 U.S. Men vs. Japan 3-2 W Pope, Dempsey, Twellman AT&T Park
San Francisco, Calif. 37,365
Feb. 19, 2006 U.S. Men vs. Guatemala 4-0 W Olsen, Ching, Johnson, Klein Pizza Hut Park
Frisco, Texas 14,453
March 1, 2006 U.S. Men vs. Poland 1-0 W Dempsey 13,395
March 22, 2006 U.S. Men vs. Germany 1-4 L Cherundolo Signal Iduna Park
Dortmund 64,500
April 11, 2006 U.S. Men vs. Jamaica 1-1 T Olsen SAS Soccer Park
Cary, N.C. 8,093
May 23, 2006 U.S. Men vs. Morocco 0-1 L -- Nashville Coliseum
Nashville, Tenn. 26,141
May 26, 2006 U.S. Men vs. Venezuela 2-0 W Ching, Dempsey Cleveland Browns Stadium
Cleveland, Ohio 29,745
May 28, 2006 U.S. Men vs. Latvia 1-0 W McBride Rentschler Field
East Hartford, Conn. 24,636
June 12, 2006 U.S. Men vs. Czech Republic 0-3 L -- FIFA World Cup Stadium Gelsenkirchen
Gelsenkirchen 52,000
June 17, 2006 U.S. Men vs. Italy 1-1 T Zaccardo (Own Goal) Fritz-Walter Stadion
Kaiserslautern 46,000
June 22, 2006 U.S. Men vs. Ghana 1-2 L Dempsey Frankenstadion
Nuremberg 41,000
You say you took landons numbers and halved them. I think by 2/3 is more appropriate. Yes, he carried the team for many a year but I think that almost gives him too much credit. You look at it he deserves credit when he was bascially the only US option for years. I look at it his numbers are way out of whack and he gets too much credit for those early years when he was basically all we hadwhen looking career numbers wise. Since the emergence of other players his numbers are not where they were and more in alignment with what I feel they would have been all along if he had that type of talent around him early in his career. I just feel that Clints time in the PL has helped him surpass LD. Not that the both aren't great. Perhaps if LD had chosen a career over here his game would have also improved to a point where no US player could ever be debated against him. He chose not to so we'll never know. I just think dempsey should be rewarded for wanting to test himself pass or fail in a league against the best in the world. Donovan chose not to. To me Donovans choice is akin to tiger woods playing in all the tournaments except the majors. He'll always be what if... It's just the way it is. Credit to him for wanting to raise the profile of his home league for sure. But when so many AMERICANS wanted him to go to europe full-time as myself it kind of stings he didn't. With Dempsey they'll never say well he didn't try or could he really have made it in europe on a year round basis. You have your choice and I have mine. They are both really excellent players.
I have to back up Kate here. I distinctly remember many US fans saying Dempsey was playing below his usual standard despite nicking a few goals at that tournament. Donovan was head and shoulders the best player at the Confed Cup for the US.
Dempsey is hitting his stride now though. Fearless player, but not cerebral like Donovan.
Dempsey is hitting his stride now though. Fearless player, but not cerebral like Donovan.
D
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Why are you arguing over how ace is he? Isn't that an oxymoron
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NelsForBlues
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Yep, he was the best. Showed up huge every game of that tournament and drove the team. Took Clint 3 games to get going. Even Bocanegra (captain of the team) said LD should have received an award in that tourney.
Surely they are different types of players? I think as an all round footballer Donovan is head and shoulders above Dempsey. His general play for Everton this time around has been pretty damn impressive. He hasn't had a pre-season to work with the other players, he has just come straight in from a different league and has 6 assists in 8 games. That is unreal. I would be busting a gut to get him here on a permanent basis and if someone said you could have Dempsey instead of him I would laugh in their face!!
Any news on there being the possibility of an extension to his loan yet? Looking at Villa and Arsenal getting rebuffed in their attempts to extend the Keane and Henry loans, I would find it unlikely. Hopefully he will be back playing where he properly belongs in the future.
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