Silva must go

[Nymzee]

Mina the latest one of the players to talk about his love of Marco. This is clearly a good thing, but perhaps there is not enough tough love to turn what on paper is a talented squad of players into winners.

I really wish he could, as like most I am frustrated with the progress, but hesitant that making another change now is a sensible thing to do. It would just continue to the vicious circle of spending a fortune changing the squad again and the club that seemed to make that model work by changing coaches rather than players every season, Watford, have hit the buffers this time.

I think the blueprint is coming together under Brands, which will take time to embed throughout the club, especially with so much dross to have got rid of that financially must be holding us back on the transfer front. As such, I think we have to hang in there with Silva, and unless in the bottom three at Christmas, judge again at the end of the season.

I see public backing of the manager as a sign he’s actually in danger more than anything else.

 

[Nymzee]

Interesting comparisons in the media today between Solskjaer and Ferguson. How after three seasons Ferguson still hadn’t turned a decent United team around despite spending quite a bit of money but the board stuck with him.

Completely rational though for us to fire Silva after 7 games when he was given an absolutely atrocious squad to start with and has operated under the financial constraints left by the excesses of the previous regime.

If only we had an example in our own history where being patient with a manager and letting them build something over a few seasons resulted in success rather than knee jerking straight away.

Moyes put credit in his bank after this first full season so got time in his second but there were countless times we could have fired him but didn’t. That proved to be the right choice each time.

Martinez had three full seasons and it was obvious that the trend was downwards when he was fired.

Koeman was piledriving us into relegation as quickly as possible and had lost the players much like Martinez had.

Silva is not close to this yet. He’s not lost the players, he had an ok first season, it’s still early in this one and there’s been no irreparable damage so far (more just opportunities missed). There’s no grounds to fire him on whatsoever. I’ll admit he’s making life difficult for himself but long term decisions at the club can’t just boil down to whether he beat Sheffield United or not. The board either believe in him or they believe there’s a body of evidence as to why he should be fired. I can’t see that body of evidence as at the moment he has an 8th place finish behind him and hasn’t yet got us out of any comps this season.

If we get to the end of the season and Europe isn’t secured and we’ve regressed then the decision point might be then but doing it now is crazy. The only way he gets fired in my opinion is if he goes full Koeman and has us looking like favourites for the drop. We play like we did v City or Wolves and that’s never the case .

But he’s not been given 7 games? He’s been given 45 mostly poor league games and two abysmal cup outings.

 

[BernieH]

I have to look at it as a whole, not just 7 games(although I did try to convince myself it was just 7 games) and it is actually pretty atrocious reading his record in this country.

There is no point at all playing well/taking points off the top boys if we struggle against our peers. It has to be tactics, yes we know he can attack space but he can't set a team up to defend consistently or break down teams that sit. No good having these runs of winning and losing, may as well just start over.

 

[Bob Elstone]

People comparing his points and win percentage with past managers forget to mention he’s spent 100s of millions of pounds picking players. This isn’t a luxury other managers have had. He’s massively underperforming and has been for a while.

Others have used watford as a yard stick for chopping and changing managers too often yet fail to mention Leicester.

He needs to go. Unfortunately it’s going to take longer than just burnley.

 

[Saint Domingo]

People comparing his points and win percentage with past managers forget to mention he’s spent 100s or pounds picking players. This isn’t a luxury other managers have had. He’s massively underperforming and has been for a while.

Others have used watford as a yard stick for chopping and changing managers too often yet fail to mention Leicester.

He needs to go. Unfortunately it’s going to take longer than just burnley.

Has he really though? In comparison to his peers and current market conditions? He’s spent 35-40 on Richarlison and the rest of the signings have all been under 30 million. That buys you Ayoze Perez in this market. Plus we’ve had to utilise loan deals as we still don’t have enough money to pad the squad out properly in every position.

The amount of money a manager spends has to be reviewed against what he has to sell and also how much his peers are spending.

Martinez received a record sum at the time to buy Lukaku as well as an eye watering loan amount for Barry. He didn’t have to sell any of his players for the three year period (and had good ones from Moyes) and was backed again for Niasse. 35 mill on a striker and 13 on a back up striker was a lot more money then that if we spent it now. I’d argue Silva would rather have these conditions than the one he’s had for the last 18 months where he’s not been able to shift the utter dross Koeman left him and has had to sell players he didn’t want to in order to raise funds to put in decent bids for players.

 

[Bob Elstone]

Has he really though? In comparison to his peers and current market conditions? He’s spent 35-40 on Richarlison and the rest of the signings have all been under 30 million. That buys you Ayoze Perez in this market. Plus we’ve had to utilise loan deals as we still don’t have enough money to pad the squad out properly in every position.

The amount of money a manager spends has to be reviewed against what he has to sell and also how much his peers are spending.

Martinez received a record sum at the time to buy Lukaku as well as an eye watering loan amount for Barry. He didn’t have to sell any of his players for the three year period (and had good ones from Moyes) and was backed again for Niasse. 35 mill on a striker and 13 on a back up striker was a lot more money then that if we spent it now. I’d argue Silva would rather have these conditions than the one he’s had for the last 18 months where he’s not been able to shift the utter dross Koeman left him and has had to sell players he didn’t want to in order to raise funds to put in decent bids for players.

He’s got a team full of good internationals and he can’t get a tune. Absolutely woeful manager.

 

[peteblue]

He’s got a team full of good internationals and he can’t get a tune. Absolutely woeful manager.

I think this more than anything else is what gets me......

 

[Saint Domingo]

He’s got a team full of good internationals and he can’t get a tune. Absolutely woeful manager.

Is Schneiderlin a good international? Is Calvert Lewin? Is Bernard? None of them are currently playing for their international teams.

Coleman Siggurdson and Iwobi play for very poor international sides and would be unlikely to get in any of the decent ones.

Digne (who is probably our best player) is probably third choice in the French team when he makes the squad. Keane is only in the England team thanks to injuries to Stones and Gomez and a dearth of centreback options. He wouldn’t be in any other equivalent team. Delph isn’t currently in the England squads and isn’t first choice when he is.

So really, out of the current fit first 11, it’s Pickford Mina and Richarlison who are ‘good internationals’ that means there’s 8 players who aren’t.

 

[catcherintherye]

Has he really though? In comparison to his peers and current market conditions? He’s spent 35-40 on Richarlison and the rest of the signings have all been under 30 million. That buys you Ayoze Perez in this market. Plus we’ve had to utilise loan deals as we still don’t have enough money to pad the squad out properly in every position.

The amount of money a manager spends has to be reviewed against what he has to sell and also how much his peers are spending.

Martinez received a record sum at the time to buy Lukaku as well as an eye watering loan amount for Barry. He didn’t have to sell any of his players for the three year period (and had good ones from Moyes) and was backed again for Niasse. 35 mill on a striker and 13 on a back up striker was a lot more money then that if we spent it now. I’d argue Silva would rather have these conditions than the one he’s had for the last 18 months where he’s not been able to shift the utter dross Koeman left him and has had to sell players he didn’t want to in order to raise funds to put in decent bids for players.

This is an important point to note. You can only really measure spend relative to what your opponents in the league do. We certainly spend more than we have for the majority of the Moyes time, and indeed what we did under Martinez (in Silva's first season) but not staggeringly so. The big spends were really given to Koeman.

You also have to factor in net spend.I know it's seen as a bit of a dirty concept in some quarters but to me it gives a more accurate reflection. We have lost a big player in Gana and haven't replaced Zouma who is looking more of a miss as each week goes by. Our spend minus outgoing was around 15 million (according to Silva).

Finally it's worth noting the wage bill has reduced by up to 10%.

So he has spent reasonable money, had to replace some important players and had to let go of some experienced players.

To me the manager club clearly wanted Zaha, Doucoure and Zouma. Had they completed all 3 you would be looking at a net spend of around £150million and wages probably going up. In that context languishing where we are would be unacceptable. However I do think Silva probably has a little more time yet.

 

[Saint Domingo]

I think fans overrate our players massively and therefore our unreasonable expectations on a manager. Not unreasonable as in we are Everton so shouldn’t settle for mid table but unreasonable as in we consider our manager to have the tools to do the job but actually they are often convinced that they don’t and are actually over performing (especially in the case of Allardyce and Silva)

We expected a top 6 challenge this season, some even higher, but let’s compare to the Moyes team who finished top 6 consistently in that 07-10 period.

Howard - international goalkeeper
Lescott Jagielka Baines (Coleman added later) - seen as amongst the best defenders in the league, Baines and Coleman both PFA team of the year players. Jags and Baines were first choice for England at 2014 World Cup.

Arteta Fellaini Cahill Pienaar Osman - seen as some of the best midfielders in our premier league history. All of them (Pienaar aside) consistent goal scorers from midfield.

Yakubu - one of the best strikers in the premier league when we bought him. We also had Johnson who had scored 20 in the league when we got him and Saha still seen as top class although injury prone.

Those teams/squads were only good enough for best of the rest.

We now have a defence were only Digne is seen as amongst the best in the league. He still won’t be anywhere near the PFA team of the year.

Schneiderlin is arguably one of our worst ever premier league midfielders and only Gomes is anywhere near the quality of the group Moyes had.

None of our strikers (including Richarlison) are anywhere near the top strikers in the league.

Yet we expect this team to go better than the one Moyes had built over years?

Against teams who have strikers like Aubamayeng Lacazette Kane Vardy? Legitimately some of the best strikers in the league.

Weirdly we used to underrate players in the Moyes period but since then we have massively overrated them and continue to do so with the current squad.

On paper it looks like the 8th or 9th best squad in the league yet Silva would face calls to be fired if that’s what he delivered. It’s a very difficult job for him.

 

[smileychap]

I have to look at it as a whole, not just 7 games(although I did try to convince myself it was just 7 games) and it is actually pretty atrocious reading his record in this country.

There is no point at all playing well/taking points off the top boys if we struggle against our peers. It has to be tactics, yes we know he can attack space but he can't set a team up to defend consistently or break down teams that sit. No good having these runs of winning and losing, may as well just start over.

Correct. Well said.

 

[Bob Elstone]

Does he have better players to get a tune out of than?:

Bournemouth?
Aston villa?
Crystal palace?
Sheffield United?

How many players apart from Zaha out of that lot of 50 odd first teamers gets in our starting 11? Not many and this hopeless fraud can’t get wins...

2 points above Newcastle.

 

[4737carlin]

Really can’t see how people can keep defending him now really. The excuses are paper thin. Lose against Burnley then surely that’s it for him. Can’t be losing to the calibre of teams he’s losing against. Especially when not one of them have had to play half decent to beat us.

What's funny is you know if we beat Burnley, some idiots will come out and say everything is ok now and Marco has shut the doubters up.

 

[smileychap]

I think fans overrate our players massively and therefore our unreasonable expectations on a manager. Not unreasonable as in we are Everton so shouldn’t settle for mid table but unreasonable as in we consider our manager to have the tools to do the job but actually they are often convinced that they don’t and are actually over performing (especially in the case of Allardyce and Silva)

We expected a top 6 challenge this season, some even higher, but let’s compare to the Moyes team who finished top 6 consistently in that 07-10 period.

Howard - international goalkeeper
Lescott Jagielka Baines (Coleman added later) - seen as amongst the best defenders in the league, Baines and Coleman both PFA team of the year players. Jags and Baines were first choice for England at 2014 World Cup.

Arteta Fellaini Cahill Pienaar Osman - seen as some of the best midfielders in our premier league history. All of them (Pienaar aside) consistent goal scorers from midfield.

Yakubu - one of the best strikers in the premier league when we bought him. We also had Johnson who had scored 20 in the league when we got him and Saha still seen as top class although injury prone.

Those teams/squads were only good enough for best of the rest.

We now have a defence were only Digne is seen as amongst the best in the league. He still won’t be anywhere near the PFA team of the year.

Schneiderlin is arguably one of our worst ever premier league midfielders and only Gomes is anywhere near the quality of the group Moyes had.

None of our strikers (including Richarlison) are anywhere near the top strikers in the league.

Yet we expect this team to go better than the one Moyes had built over years?

Against teams who have strikers like Aubamayeng Lacazette Kane Vardy? Legitimately some of the best strikers in the league.

Weirdly we used to underrate players in the Moyes period but since then we have massively overrated them and continue to do so with the current squad.

On paper it looks like the 8th or 9th best squad in the league yet Silva would face calls to be fired if that’s what he delivered. It’s a very difficult job for him.

Good post that. Fair points.

I do want Silva to go and think the comparison you've given is telling. Here's why I think it substantiates him leaving:

1. Everton grabbed the players above early in their careers, and made them great through organisation and work ethic. Surely Silva has a mandate to build a squad with Brands (and I don't see much quality in our signings) or concentration or work ethic.
2. I also think the reason the Moyes era squad played well was work ethic, through leadership and concentration on the pitch which Silva seems unable to implement or change via his terrible touchline presence... quibbling his chin and lip and straightening his tie instead of bawling at the lads to keep in the game. All the guys who've done best whether with big 6 or lower order sides having great spells in the prem are rarely as passive as Silva on the touchline, barring possibly Pelligrini and a few of the fellas at chelsea - but that's basically because they had stella squads.
3. Moyes record against peer / lower sides was better. Tactics, effort, concentration.

So back to Silva with his poor squad.

He's unable to identify players
He's unable to motivate players
He's tactically poor
He's unable to influence a game in progress

He goes. I agree with your point on squad, but basically to your point I think much of that disparity is a result of Silva.

 

[brieverton]

I agree that we over-rate our own players.

The point for me though, is that it is Silva's job to collectively mould those players into a squad that is better than the sum of its parts.

We are lacking quality and quantity in some areas, but I don't think a 7th placed finish with an improved points total should be beyond this group.

What separates a good manager from his peer group is that ability to over-achieve and do so consistently.

Moyes was capable of it on a shoestring budget, in relative terms Silva has has much more pickings available to him, and even if the individual fees are of the £20-30m bracket, they were brought in under him and Brands.

He can certainly point to difficult circumstances yes, but that's the nature of being Everton manager.

The bar should remain high. I don't merely want him to cope, I want him to cope with something to spare.

If he cannot show that soon, then his time here will just peter out, be it at the end of the season or earlier.