Roberto Martinez Discussion - Including Live Poll (Poll Reset 1st May)

[Papa Shango]

how can you know that for sure? anyone could have come in instead of martinez and developed him and also developed a winning team around him. in all likelihood anyone semi-competent would have.

Well of course I cant be sure, nobody can. I can only deal in the facts and the facts are that Martinez has improved Stones value by having the faith in him to put him in the team.

There are deffo managers out there who would not have put him in so young and when he has some obvious issues with his game.

 

[Papa Shango]

I think Martinez is to be credited for giving Stones a go and showcasing his strength in bringing the ball out initially... and then conversely for not teaching him to reign it in and not benching him off when he so obviously needed to be - all to the team's detriment and to the detriment of the lad's ego/confidence/progress. I think the latter outweighs the former, personally.

He did bench him didnt he?

 

[mightymoyes]

Well of course I cant be sure, nobody can. I can only deal in the facts and the facts are that Martinez has improved Stones value by having the faith in him to put him in the team.

There are deffo managers out there who would not have put him in so young and when he has some obvious issues with his game.

and still does with no sign of the manager rectifying them

 

[Papa Shango]

and still does with no sign of the manager rectifying them

Thats not the point thats being discussed though.

 

[Hibbertinho]

He did bench him didnt he?

Yeah - too late, though ('...when he so obviously needed to be...') - same with Howard.

 

[Ashtonian]

Stagnated might be a bit strong in terms of choice of word as it indicates something has gone bad.

I think it is fair to say that he has not progressed as well as he might have done?

There has still been too many times where his first touch resembles that of a baby elephant.

There have still been too many times where he is out muscled by people he should be flattening.

Still too many times when challenging in the air that it looks a bit on the half measure.

Still too many times where he has looked completely uninterested (regardless of why that may be).

Too many times where he has apparently gobbed off to the press when away with the national gig.

Ultimately a young lad who is still developing and learning in many respects – just doesn’t be appearing to learn them with this management/coaching team.

But ultimately still banging the goals in (thank the Gods) otherwise we would be stuffed.

And wouldn’t it be great to see what he could do if he stays and is developed further!

Pesronally i would say it is the team not the player that is the problem.

watch all the recent run of games, lukaku is getting the ball pumped to him with no-one around him. He is being asked to hold the play up, with his back to goal and about 40 yards away. Half the time his support is having to chase the ball because it was them who hit it to him. It is just poor management of the team, his most creative player dropped, being asked to take on defenses by himself, and playing every minute of every game without even a 15 minute rest before the end. Of course it will take its toll on him, and of course you will see him grind to a halt, ala barkley as well.

when he is getting the ball facing goal, he makes things happen. when he gets chances created, most of the time he finishes them. It is actually criminal that Martinez cannot see this, especially when it was actually working for so long.

 

[hktoffee]

There is nothing wrong with having that agenda by the way. Im just saying its there.

Listen whatever, I strongly agree with you saying that he hasnt left anything in the club regarding the future. (I think it was you, I dont know, the quoting system on this forum is horrendous).

If it wasnt for Martinez showing some faith in Stones he would still be a 3M player as he wouldnt have played. But he was happy to put him in and let him do his thing. The reason he is worth so much is because of his footballing ability which Martinez lets him show (rightly or wrongly..) its not as if anyone wants him purely for his defensive ability is it?

Put it this way, if Martinez left us tomorrow he will have left the squad and the youth squad below it in a strong position. We are littered with young players with potential. Some of them may not pan out, others will. But to say that he has not left anything for the future is just plain wrong.

Of course Lukaku would have signed for us without Mirallas' influence. Why wouldnt he?

Moyes left us a bloody strong squad and position but look where are we now? The manager is the root of failure. And he just played a couple of kids in the last few meaningless games. Yes, he promoted Stones and Barkley but they are Moyes's signings. Some posters are making Martinez like the master of training worldclass youth out of nothing...I don't agree.

 

[Lanolin]

Martinez certainly deserves some credit for the progression of Barkley, Stones, and Lukaku. They are all better now than they were when he took over, and the fact that he's played them all is undoubtedly a big part of that. It's difficult to say how much is down to him though, and how much is just natural progression as they've got older.

When I left school at 16 I was a lot more educated than when I started at 4. The school was terrible though. It's spent most of it's years in special measures with Ofsted, and half the ex pupils are probably on the dole. Same principle here for me, just because players have improved under Martinez, doesn't mean they've improved because of him. The fact that none of the older players seem to have got better would suggest that improving individuals isn't a great strength of his.

Barkley certainly hasn't reached the levels I thought he would have by now. Lukaku is more dangerous, but his touch and link up play still leaves a lot to be desired. Deulofeu is hardly any different to the player we signed three years ago. He's developed a dangerous early cross but even that seemed to happen while he was away.

 

[The Mighty Quint]

He's lost the players, the whole team downed tools after the West Ham game, they've had two years of his bullcrap and have had enough now.

Think what happened at Chelsea earlier this season, it's happening here.

 

[blue_order]

We're a manager away from being half decent.

It's up to the board to step up and stop the rot.

 

[Darth Toffeeman]

Cannot wait till this awful season ends and we can cull the management team and hopefully bring in a manager of the calibre to push us back to the very top.

I am sick and tired of mid table nothingness.
2 semi finals and 11th is simply not good enough with this squad, or for this club. Those horrible bulbs across the park have made 2 finals this season with an inferior starting 11. Fuming as to why we accept mediocrity.

I pray Moshiri will make a real statement this summer with incomings on and off the pitch.

 

[TheCount]

The first and third points are well documented, hardly made up. And Stones has clearly regressed under Martinez

He gave Stones his debut, how has he regressed since his debut?

"Lakaku - Came here because Mirallas talked him into coming here in the first place"

If you reckon Martinez had no say / sway in signing Lukaku I'll have to leave you to it.

He has to go, but try not to be blinded by frustration and hate. Its a dark path

 

[Ashtonian]

There is nothing wrong with having that agenda by the way. Im just saying its there.

Listen whatever, I strongly agree with you saying that he hasnt left anything in the club regarding the future. (I think it was you, I dont know, the quoting system on this forum is horrendous).

If it wasnt for Martinez showing some faith in Stones he would still be a 3M player as he wouldnt have played. But he was happy to put him in and let him do his thing. The reason he is worth so much is because of his footballing ability which Martinez lets him show (rightly or wrongly..) its not as if anyone wants him purely for his defensive ability is it?

Put it this way, if Martinez left us tomorrow he will have left the squad and the youth squad below it in a strong position. We are littered with young players with potential. Some of them may not pan out, others will. But to say that he has not left anything for the future is just plain wrong.

Of course Lukaku would have signed for us without Mirallas' influence. Why wouldnt he?

He is worth so much because he is competent at defending, young and is english. If he wasn't english then the figures quoted would be nowhere near as high, or would he be as coveted. Chelsea wanted him as a replacement for Terry remember.

also, what benefits has martinez done to the youth if he left? Name one young player better off once he goes? Stones has declined massively and is probably a bit shot of confidence, ala Barkely is. It is clear none of these young players get any coaching to develop them, if you gave martinez 10 years with them they would be at the same level the whole time, none would improve unless they naturally learned how to do it. Compare that to Arsenal/United where the young players are coached and developed to have not just careers but premiership careers as well. That is how you coach youngsters, Martinez although good he gave stones and barkley games, it is also martinez who has not put anything in place to develop them 2 years later.

 

[Papa Shango]

He is worth so much because he is competent at defending, young and is english. If he wasn't english then the figures quoted would be nowhere near as high, or would he be as coveted. Chelsea wanted him as a replacement for Terry remember.

also, what benefits has martinez done to the youth if he left? Name one young player better off once he goes? Stones has declined massively and is probably a bit shot of confidence, ala Barkely is. It is clear none of these young players get any coaching to develop them, if you gave martinez 10 years with them they would be at the same level the whole time, none would improve unless they naturally learned how to do it. Compare that to Arsenal/United where the young players are coached and developed to have not just careers but premiership careers as well. That is how you coach youngsters, Martinez although good he gave stones and barkley games, it is also martinez who has not put anything in place to develop them 2 years later.

Barkley has improved year on year. Stones has been quality the past two games. Lets not forget the transfer stuff to Chelsea will have affected him too.

The point was that Martinez has done nothing for the future of the club and that point is nonsense. He has blooded/shown faith in youngsters which in turn adds to their value. He has brought a load of youngsters in to the club who will hopefully have a bright future. Whether he is able to coach them is irrelevant here as the pointy being made is that he hasnt done anything for the clubs future. He obviously has.

 

[Ashtonian]

Barkley has improved year on year. Stones has been quality the past two games. Lets not forget the transfer stuff to Chelsea will have affected him too.

The point was that Martinez has done nothing for the future of the club and that point is nonsense. He has blooded/shown faith in youngsters which in turn adds to their value. He has brought a load of youngsters in to the club who will hopefully have a bright future. Whether he is able to coach them is irrelevant here as the pointy being made is that he hasnt done anything for the clubs future. He obviously has.

YOuth in the academy is neither here nor there. they aren't in the team so for all we know they might only be as good as that level.

But yeah, only 2 young players are in the team and to say stones has regressed because chelsea tried to sign him is just silly. He has had a full 9 month season and actually looks worse than he did last season. It is clearly not his ability, so why is he doing cruyff turns and risky back passes and whatever else all season long? the manager.

Barkley has not had an impact on a game properly since newcastle, he looks tired and fed up when he plays, yet again 2 years ago he didn't?

away from them two, there is not a single youth player you can point at having a positive impact because of martinez, i'm sorry but giving one youngster a chance for 10 minutes or one half once is not positive, that is a manager trying to envoke a bit of life into a team that has given up on him.

Oh and coaching them irelevant? how so? Because otherwise you are saying all teengers are capable and know how to play football at the highest level? They need coaching to improve and our young players do not have that. They get no direction, no focus, no real barometer of success or failure, they just play the next week and do it all over again.