New Everton Stadium - Hill Dickinson Stadium

[marty mcfly]

All the evidence is available, I'd suggest you read it. People may not think of you as stupid/ignorant/on a wind up

Who says I didn't read it. The evidence is there. I asked you a question. When you say planning law? What do you mean?

I said Liverpool council stopped it because of the negative effects Everton leaving would have on the area and the city. That report just underlines what I said. I'm really failing to grasp your point beyond it was the board's fault.

You're basically saying the board made a mistake wanting to move because they should have known the council wouldn't grant them permission.

How the hell are they supposed to know that and why would they accept that? Everton is a private business. The council don't have a right to tell them they can't move. They used planning laws to make it impossible to move but that wasn't a forgone conclusion since as you know the council isn't one entity, it's made up of individuals who can be won over.

Apparently when someone now disagrees that makes them doing it for a wind up.

 

[ically]

Who says I didn't read it. The evidence is there. I asked you a question. When you say planning law? What do you mean?

I said Liverpool council stopped it because of the negative effects Everton leaving would have on the area and the city. That report just underlines what I said. I'm really failing to grasp your point beyond it was the board's fault.

You're basically saying the board made a mistake wanting to move because they should have known the council wouldn't grant them permission.

How the hell are they supposed to know that and why would they accept that? Everton is a private business. The council don't have a right to tell them they can't move. They used planning laws to make it impossible to move but that wasn't a forgone conclusion since as you know the council isn't one entity, it's made up of individuals who can be won over.

Apparently when someone now disagrees that makes them doing it for a wind up.

It had nothing to do with Everton leaving the city,
It had everything to do with our club associating itself with a development which was the size of the Trafford centre in Kirkby,
In short the development was too big and was never going to get approved.

 

[marty mcfly]

It had nothing to do with Everton leaving the city,
It had everything to do with our club associating itself with a development which was the size of the Trafford centre in Kirkby,
In short the development was too big and was never going to get approved.

There was definitely a large amount of objectors on the basis of the Tesco store but to say it had nothing to do with Everton leaving the city when one of the objecting groups was call "Keep Everton In Our City" is just nonsense.

As I said the reason why they aren't transparent is because there's a variety of vested interests that wouldn't want it to happen but it's not like other football clubs hadn't done the same thing. There was no reason apart from the fact that planning committee found in favour of the city council which is hardly surprising.

Personally from what people like Joe Anderson said it was very important to the council to keep Everton in the city. Call that planning laws if you must.

And as I said since then he and others have been working to make it happen however now the hard bit begins. Getting someone to pay but had Everton not gone ahead with the Kirby project the reality is the council might never have offered any assistance.

 

[ically]

There was definitely a large amount of objectors on the basis of the Tesco store but to say it had nothing to do with Everton leaving the city when one of the objecting groups was call "Keep Everton In Our City" is just nonsense.

As I said the reason why they aren't transparent is because there's a variety of vested interests that wouldn't want it to happen but it's not like other football clubs hadn't done the same thing. There was no reason apart from the fact that planning committee found in favour of the city council which is hardly surprising.

Personally from what people like Joe Anderson said it was very important to the council to keep Everton in the city. Call that planning laws if you must.

And as I said since then he and others have been working to make it happen however now the hard bit begins. Getting someone to pay but had Everton not gone ahead with the Kirby project the reality is the council might never have offered any assistance.

The MP for Walton at the time made no such efforts though in wanting Everton to stay, Call that vested interests as well if you like,
I personally am 100% sure that WHP will not get anywhere near the stage that Kirkby got to,
But we can go around this all day long, The fact will always be that this current board have not, will not , invest any of their own money in either the upkeep of Goodison Park or to fund an alternative stadium,
They want an "effectively free" stadium.

On another note, Do you think that Kirkby was a good idea?

 

[marty mcfly]

The MP for Walton at the time made no such efforts though in wanting Everton to stay, Call that vested interests as well if you like,
I personally am 100% sure that WHP will not get anywhere near the stage that Kirkby got to,
But we can go around this all day long, The fact will always be that this current board have not, will not , invest any of their own money in either the upkeep of Goodison Park or to fund an alternative stadium,
They want an "effectively free" stadium.

On another note, Do you think that Kirkby was a good idea?

I'm glad we didn't move however at the time and still now I'm desperate for movement to be made regarding the stadium. We really will see ourselves struggling to stay in the premier league without either a redevelopment of Goodison or a new studium.

The problem I have is that while it would be nice for the board to put their hands in their pockets to build a new stadium it's obvious that's never going to happen and it's also just as obvious that no investor will touch us without one. I know people think there are those that are interested and it's just the valuation that's putting them off but the price is whatever the board set and as a result nothing we can do but fume plus I can't really blame them so find it hard to argue that they should sell. Why should the sell for a value they don't believe is fair and ultimately since they're the owners it's their call plus I totally understand their argument about only being willing to sell to the right owner, plenty of clubs have been ruined taking on the wrong owners.

I also accept the argument that renovating Goodison doesn't make sense and will never make sense. The facts won't change with a new owner. There's just not the space never mind about the church. Football has moved away from stadiums stuck in the middle of terrace houses in much the same way as retail has moved away from the high street to superstores. I don't need to be architect to see that and while culturally it would be cool to stay I agree it probably isn't practical.

Hopefully they can do a deal with the council. It doesn't need to be raw cash but there could be incentives that would make sense otherwise we're going to really start struggling.

 

[Moomin]

I'm glad we didn't move however at the time and still now I'm desperate for movement to be made regarding the stadium. We really will see ourselves struggling to stay in the premier league without either a redevelopment of Goodison or a new studium.

The problem I have is that while it would be nice for the board to put their hands in their pockets to build a new stadium it's obvious that's never going to happen and it's also just as obvious that no investor will touch us without one. I know people think there are those that are interested and it's just the valuation that's putting them off but the price is whatever the board set and as a result nothing we can do but fume plus I can't really blame them so find it hard to argue that they should sell. Why should the sell for a value they don't believe is fair and ultimately since they're the owners it's their call plus I totally understand their argument about only being willing to sell to the right owner, plenty of clubs have been ruined taking on the wrong owners.

I also accept the argument that renovating Goodison doesn't make sense and will never make sense. The facts won't change with a new owner. There's just not the space never mind about the church. Football has moved away from stadiums stuck in the middle of terrace houses in much the same way as retail has moved away from the high street to superstores. I don't need to be architect to see that and while culturally it would be cool to stay I agree it probably isn't practical.

Hopefully they can do a deal with the council. It doesn't need to be raw cash but there could be incentives that would make sense otherwise we're going to really start struggling.

We don't want to sell to the wrong owners!!! We have the wrong owners in charge right now. Owners who have not invested a penny into the infrastructure of Goodison. Cocked up our dream ticket to kings dock after lying to us all when saying the money was ring fenced.

Kirkby Sham was never going to happen, transport scheme was not viable. The neighbouring councils objecting and I seriously doubt we could have funded that concrete shed. It was a sub standard stadium that was a design and build job by Barr.

Barr are the cheap builders when it comes to stadia, trust me I've worked on a few projects with them, they will rip the cost out of everything.

In the end, Kirkby if we filled it would have gave us an extra 6 million per annum. We would have been lumbered with a below par stadium while the likes of Robert sailed off into the sunset with a nice profit.

They don't care one iota about the right owner, the first person to meet the asking price they will sell to.

 

[marty mcfly]

We don't want to sell to the wrong owners!!! We have the wrong owners in charge right now. Owners who have not invested a penny into the infrastructure of Goodison. Cocked up our dream ticket to kings dock after lying to us all when saying the money was ring fenced.

Kirkby Sham was never going to happen, transport scheme was not viable. The neighbouring councils objecting and I seriously doubt we could have funded that concrete shed. It was a sub standard stadium that was a design and build job by Barr.

Barr are the cheap builders when it comes to stadia, trust me I've worked on a few projects with them, they will rip the cost out of everything.

In the end, Kirkby if we filled it would have gave us an extra 6 million per annum. We would have been lumbered with a below part stadium while the likes of Robert sailed off into the sunset with a nice profit.

They don't care one iota about the right owner, the first person to meet the asking price they will sell to.

I won't disagree with you on the Kings Dock.

However there are worse owners. After all we signed a 28m 21 year old striker last season and for all the talk that we're a selling club we haven't sold anyone that we either didn't want or didn't fight to keep.

I'm not saying they're perfect, far from it but there's much worse. Maybe that's the difference between you and me. My argument is almost a case of better the devil you know.

 

[Toffeelover]

We don't want to sell to the wrong owners!!! We have the wrong owners in charge right now. Owners who have not invested a penny into the infrastructure of Goodison. Cocked up our dream ticket to kings dock after lying to us all when saying the money was ring fenced.

Kirkby Sham was never going to happen, transport scheme was not viable. The neighbouring councils objecting and I seriously doubt we could have funded that concrete shed. It was a sub standard stadium that was a design and build job by Barr.

Barr are the cheap builders when it comes to stadia, trust me I've worked on a few projects with them, they will rip the cost out of everything.

In the end, Kirkby if we filled it would have gave us an extra 6 million per annum. We would have been lumbered with a below par stadium while the likes of Robert sailed off into the sunset with a nice profit.

They don't care one iota about the right owner, the first person to meet the asking price they will sell to.

Aye and Everton would have been joining the Titanic.

 

[The Esk]

We really will see ourselves struggling to stay in the premier league without either a redevelopment of Goodison or a new studium.

That's complete nonsense. The additional income generated by a new stadium is inconsequential in relation to building a new/better squad - besides which, even with Martinez in charge there is little prospect of relegation.

Furthermore there is no investment case for a new stadium when you consider the capital cost versus the additional income raised. It only becomes viable through some form of public subsidy.

 

[Toffeelover]

That's complete nonsense. The additional income generated by a new stadium is inconsequential in relation to building a new/better squad - besides which, even with Martinez in charge there is little prospect of relegation.

Furthermore there is no investment case for a new stadium when you consider the capital cost versus the additional income raised. It only becomes viable through some form of public subsidy.

One can argue that point, in theory you are right. However take GP, it is a depreciating asset and will require increasing amounts of money to maintain. There is always the consideration of safety in due course, wonder if any of those steel girders are nearly rotted through only held together by umpteen coats of paint? Wonder what all that cladding on the outside is now hiding?

So could the point be at what time will the stadium income not be sufficient to meet maintenance costs.

 

[marty mcfly]

That's complete nonsense. The additional income generated by a new stadium is inconsequential in relation to building a new/better squad - besides which, even with Martinez in charge there is little prospect of relegation.

Furthermore there is no investment case for a new stadium when you consider the capital cost versus the additional income raised. It only becomes viable through some form of public subsidy.

Any team in the bottom 8 could get relegated every season if they have a bad year.

Once the new stadiums are built or moved into that will mean Chelsea, Utd, City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs and West Ham will almost always be above us. We will be a solid mid-table team playing for nothing each year. In another 10 years what makes you think we won't be a bottom 8 team.

Regarding additional income. You have no idea of what difference it would make because we have no idea how it will effect the commercial side of things. New stadiums with modern facilities are a draw for corporate clients. It won't add a lot on to the gate receipts but it could potentially be a game changer in respect to the corporate side. Then you also have to factor in the prestige of the new ground in attracting better sponsorship.

I find it odd that you seem to think we're different to every other football club around the world who have recently moved into a new ground.

What makes us so special?

 

[The Esk]

Any team in the bottom 8 could get relegated every season if they have a bad year.

Once the new stadiums are built or moved into that will mean Chelsea, Utd, City, Arsenal, Chelsea, Liverpool, Spurs and West Ham will almost always be above us. We will be a solid mid-table team playing for nothing each year. In another 10 years what makes you think we won't be a bottom 8 team.

Regarding additional income. You have no idea of what difference it would make because we have no idea how it will effect the commercial side of things. New stadiums with modern facilities are a draw for corporate clients. It won't add a lot on to the gate receipts but it could potentially be a game changer in respect to the corporate side. Then you also have to factor in the prestige of the new ground in attracting better sponsorship.

I find it odd that you seem to think we're different to every other football club around the world who have recently moved into a new ground.

What makes us so special?

Well, I think we can guess as to the effect of a new stadium on future income and most estimates suggest £6m in additional income. I'll be generous and suggest that a new stadium will reduce operating costs, so let's say we're a net £10m a year better off.

How much will a new stadium cost? £200 million at least. My point is that there is little reason to seek that level of investment for that level of increased income, which will not materially affect our on-field performance.

Importantly, albeit they're not disclosing this publicly, the major shareholders hold the same view.

No public subsidy, no new or improved stadium.

 

[Brownie]

Well, I think we can guess as to the effect of a new stadium on future income and most estimates suggest £6m in additional income. I'll be generous and suggest that a new stadium will reduce operating costs, so let's say we're a net £10m a year better off.

How much will a new stadium cost? £200 million at least. My point is that there is little reason to seek that level of investment for that level of increased income, which will not materially affect our on-field performance.

Importantly, albeit they're not disclosing this publicly, the major shareholders hold the same view.

No public subsidy, no new or improved stadium.

I'm not going to, but I think you could argue that it's this kind of refusal to acknowledge the intangibles of brand building that has seen the club make so little commercial progress in 20 years.

 

[The Esk]

I'm not going to, but I think you could argue that it's this kind of refusal to acknowledge the intangibles of brand building that has seen the club make so little commercial progress in 20 years.

I agree totally - the board are quite happy to sweat the assets as much as possible with minimal investment in anything, brand, team, stadium etc etc.

 

[mrb85]

That's because the Champions League is quickly turning into the European super league that UEFA wants.

Nothing is the answer. Kids are glory hunters.

Thing about a 'European Super League' is that there's only half a dozen continental teams most would bother getting out of bed for to go and watch on annual basis.